Hunting Sword no1

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

Salaams Norman, I have no problem inserting web sites provided it is logged as such and for research...clearly not associated to some purchase..thus allowed. On the Arabic I am wrong... Its funny but I switched it on just now and it is clearly a fleur de lys stamp whereas yesterday I swear I was seeing a peculiar "God is Great" stamp... I put it down to the heat (about 50 degrees yesterday !) Apologies for that.

Anyway on the website there are a couple of swords and the fleur de lys appears to be from the Scottish ... would this be because of the Franco/ Scottish allegiance at the time?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ibrahiim,
No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.


P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.


P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post

Thanks Norman.. 2000 !! Thats a whole lot of ink !!

Aye! I heard that Scots go blue afore they go brown !!!
This is a fascinating thread and the factors behind the "Trio in Juncta" or "Fleur de Lys" are very interesting and Forum are lucky to have the entire Bookmobile of Jim McDougall in direct support on route 66...

Great thread Norman... Thanks.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Norman and Ibrahiim, thank you for the kind words !!
I am warned by my wife that any more books in this thing will require much heavier springs!!
My hope is that others will be joining in here quid pro quo....I add whatever I can find in order to share as much as I can and there are so many other references out there I don't have here. That's why I implore others who have them to check them and add their notes.

On the Scot/French situation. While that was of course a well established alliance and the French language was well spoken in Scotland, the deal with these fleur de lis markings on these basket hilt swords I think not really applicable. These were English blades on British dragoon swords which were typically from Birmingham, and there mostly from Germany (though these FDL blades are still undetermined) .
I am beginning to wonder if these fleur de lis blades might have been from St. Etienne? There seem to be a good number found in French mounts, more than I had thought.

[M ELEY]

I'm wondering just how far back the fleur-de-lis really goes on English blades?! I've personally seen at least two of the so-called 'doghead' Englsh naval swords (brass cast monster/dog gripped) from the 1680-1710 period with the above stamp! Early Brit naval hanger baldes from this period often had German blades (the King/crown Wundes family marking comes to mind), so still wondeering if these baldes are German-made imports?

[Hotspur]

Prepare for some reading

Displaying Results 1 - 20 of 238
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London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 200-299 (Dec 1567 - Jan 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

tenon-saws, 6 doz. hand-saws, 6 cwt frying pans, 20 doz. coarse sword blades. 9½ grs small hanging locks, 48 lbs curtain rings, 20 lbs clavichord wire, 10 thou. awl blades £39 12 s (3 Dec 1567). James Harvie: 4 doz. whip-saws £6. John Gardyner: 12 cwt red lead, 4 cwt white lead, 3 qrs white copperas, 2 hd (

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35954
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 500-599 (May - June, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

chains, 60 lbs counters, 16 cwt frying pans, 48 doz. coarse sword blades £63 3 s 4 d (29 May 1568). Henry Becher: 109 doz. thou. pins, 203 yds taffeta, 200 half-pcs Genoa fustian £152 10 s . John Lambert: 13 cwt battery £26. Gerson Hills: 38 cwt hemp £38. Richard Hills: 41 cwt hemp £41. John Pasfilde: 1

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35957
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 1-99 (Sept - Nov, 1567)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

wool £11 13 s 4 d (3 Oct 1567). John Spencer: 220 lbs pepper £18 6 s 8 d . George Breame: 10 cwt battery £20. Edward Jackman: 650 lbs pepper £54 3 s 4 d . Edmund Burton: 3 half-brls head nails, 5 cwt frying pans, 24 doz. coarse sword blades, 7 cwt white plates, 12 hd 'stass' steel, 3 cwt pack thread,

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35952
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 600-699 (June - Aug, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

crewel, 4 doz. lbs bottom pack thread £9 10 s . Thomas Parker: 78 pcs dornick with wool £26. Thomas Brasye: 4 bales Ulm fustian £60. Matthew Fyld: 22 pcs grogram camlet, 66 half-pcs Genoa fustian £52 6 s 8 d . John Passfyld: 7 cwt iron wire, 7 cwt iron creepers, 7 doz. coarse sword blades, 1½ cwt black

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35958
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 700-799 (Aug - Sept, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

William Hewet: 13 brls rape oil, 2 bales Ulm fustian £46 6 s 8 d . Robert Exton: 4½ cwt madder, 3 nests empty chests, 5 doz. sword blades £8 6 s 8 d . William Ludington: 12 brls rape oil, 3 cwt litmus, 30 lbs sugar candy, 3 cwt almonds, 10 lbs green ginger, 25 lbs verdigris £26 1 s 8 d . Henry Bechar: 41

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35959
London Port Book, 1567-8 - Nos. 300-399 (Jan - Mar, 1568)

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

cloves, 64 lbs nutmegs, 20 lbs mace £50 5 s . Edmund Burton: 2 cwt iron wire, 21 doz. chisels, 9 grs hanging locks, 5½ cwt loose black latten, 5 cwt dripping pans, 31 doz. sword blades £51 10 s . Gerson Hills: 7 cwt hemp £7. Richard Byllam: 21 cwt madder £14. Thomas Starkey: 1500 ells minsters £16 13 s 4

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35955
Appendix II - Descriptive list of commodities

The port and trade of early Elizabethan London: documents

used in tanning and dyeing. Sword blades, 18 Tablemen, 593. Pieces used in board games. Tables, 593; walnut, 792. See also Playing tables, Writing tables Tacks, 465 Taffeta, 18; 'caffaes', 465; Florence, 462; Levant, 45; Lucca ('Lukes'), 465; Spanish, 357; Tours, 156. 'Caffaes', perhaps from caffa, a

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=35962
Cutler Street Warehouses - Cyvyndonelane

A Dictionary of London

Cutler Street Warehouses See Port of London Authority's Warehouses. Cutlers' Company Elections to the Mistery made in 1328 (Cal. L. Bk. E. p. 233). Company incorporated 4 H. VI., uniting three smaller Companies, viz.: the Bladers, forgers of blades ; the makers of Haftes and otherwise garnishers of

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=63101
East Indies - April 1632

Calendar of State Papers Colonial, East Indies and Persia, Volume 8

great, but in small pigs of ¾ cwt.; this Governor will let no man buy it, and will give what he pleases. Quicksilver sent to Agra. John Leachland retained. Twelve hundred ffs. Agra indigo ordained to be bought. Amber beads of good hope, but rough. Amber hopeless. Some sword blades found bad. Presents:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=71447
Anne - January 1704

Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Anne, 1703-4

others, taken before Mathew White, Mayor of Newcastle. Soldart, sworn, says:— Came from Rotterdam about sixteen days since in ballast with flax and sale-[sail-]duck. Brought ten passengers [ details ], whose names he does not know. Landed at Jarrow. Knows nothing of the bundles of sword-blades and hanger

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=59089
Folios lxxi - lxxx - Aug 1408 -

Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I

workmanship by the Bladesmythes. Thereupon it was agreed that in future a joint scrutiny of blades should from time to time be made by two Masters of the Cutlers and two of the Bladesmythes. Folio lxxi b. Ordinacio int' Cultellar' et Fabros Blade smythes voc'. 12 Oct., 10 Henry IV. [A.D. 1408], came the

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=33680
Journal, January 1777 - Volume 84

Journals of the Board of Trade and Plantations, Volume 14

Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated 8th January, 1777, referring to this Board the petition of Thomas Monkland, for leave to export six thousand sword blades to the East Indies, on board the ship Rochford , John Beard, commander. Read an Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated January

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=77764
Early Man - Bronze Age

A history of the County of Oxford: Volume 1

(Pl. VI 3 c ), from which also were recovered two so-called rapiers, one 14½ in. long with rounded butt (Pl. VIII 2 a ), the other 15½ in. with square-ended butt and narrower blade, like a third from the river at Reading. Finally, from the Thames come short swords, one 18½ in. long, with two rivets,

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...?compid=101927
Journal, March 1776 - Volume 83

Journals of the Board of Trade and Plantations, Volume 14

Council; vizt. Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated February 28th, 1776, referring to this Board, for their consideration and report, the petition of Isaac Pratt, for leave to export ten thousand, five hundred sword blades to the East Indies. Order of the Lords of the Privy Council, dated March

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=77754
November 1656 - An Act for the Exportation of several Commodities of the Breed, Growth and Manufacture of this Commonwealth.

Acts and Ordinances of the Interregnum, 1642-1660

That it shall and may be lawfull to transport beyond the Seas, into any part in Amity with this Commonwealth, all sorts of Arms: That is to say, Muskets, Carbines, Birding or Fowling Pieces, Pistols, Sword and Rapier Blades, Hilts for Swords, Rapiers, or Daggers, Bandaliers, Pikeheads, Halbert-heads

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=56598
House of Lords Journal Volume 18 - 29 March 1708

Journal of the House of Lords: volume 18

and others: Who brought up a Bill, intituled, "An Act for limiting a Time to Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates and other Interests in Ireland , sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England ,

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=29663
Index - T

Calendar of State Papers Relating to English Affairs in the Archives of Venice, Volume 12

778, 779. -, in sword-blades , English with Turkey, 435. -, in tabinets , Venetian watered, 381. -, in tin , English with Constanti nople, 383. -, in Vallonia. See Gall nuts. -, in velvet , Venetian coloured, 381. -, in white-lead , 507, 508. -, in wine , 24, 29, 145, Muscat, 281, 393; from Crete, 872.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=95735
House of Lords Journal Volume 18 - 1 April 1708

Journal of the House of Lords: volume 18

and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates and other Interests in Ireland , sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England , and divers other Purchasers." After some Time, the House was resumed. And the Earl of Stamford

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=29666
Volume 5 - September 3-November 14, 1689

Calendar of Treasury Papers, Volume 1

Ann Hutchins for the delivery of certain sword-blades; submitting the consideration of the case to their Lordships as one of compassion, the petitioner's husband being a Dutchman, and by trade a sword-cutler at Rotterdam, having shipped 24 dozen of sword blades to set up in business in England, which

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=79451
Charles I - volume 328 - July 1-17, 1636

Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Charles I, 1636-7

July 1-17, 1636 July 1. 1. Petition of Benjamin Stone, blade-maker, on Hounslow Heath, to the King. Upon a petition to his Majesty, petitioner showed the great charge he had been at in perfecting the manufacture of sword blades, and entreated his Majesty to take into his store 2,000 blades, which

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=52691

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Displaying Results 1 - 20 of 238

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It has been some years ago I started looking at British commerce via this site
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

Do regiister. as you can build a shelf.

By the third quarter of the 18th century, tens of thousands of blades were being exported by England (many to the East indies). Prior to the 18th century, notesimilar quantities entering London. Then, note the Hollow Sword Company debacle that went on for a couple of decades.

I don't have an answer for the lily

Cheers

GC