Hunting Sword no1

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th June 2014, 05:03 PM

An amazing thread !! More !!

I know less than nothing about these European weapons ... however, I did find this at http://www.cullodenantiques.com/page...d-weapons.html to whit there appears an equal Fleur de Lys below from that weapon not an English Dragoons Basket Hilted Backsword but a Scottish Troop Horse Grenadiers Sword

Sorry Norman !!

OOPS...!! This I note has already generally been pointed to earlier at #6.. but I make the correction.

I note also at #9 some arabic to the blade which is a variation on the "God is Great" theme but stacked half sideways...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2014, 10:09 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Thank you for the additional pics of the interesting Culloden House item which Norman posted in #6 and noted as a basket hilted sword. As it was not specifically identified it is interesting to know that it was a horse grenadier sword. I have always considered Robert Docherty's descriptions and detail most reliable, and this is a great example.

The Scottish regiments in the British army were receiving swords made in Birmingham and London for a good number of years before Culloden (1746). One of the first recordings of an actual supplier was 1759, when Nathaniel Jeffries was noted having delivered 3500 broadswords that year ( "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784" Anthony Darling, 1988 , p.13).
He and Dru Drury were both actually goldsmiths, who according to Darling (p.53) probably subcontracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their workshops in London, contributing their own grips and coverings.

They both stamped the blades with crown over their names in roughly similar location to these fleur de lis stamps and with similar 'artwork'.

In his interesting monograph , "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" (Mowbray, 1971) Lord Archibald Campbell is describing a number of blades from the tragic battle of 1746, which were rather heinously fabricated into a fence. He claims that virtually all the blades, save about two stated from the British, were all Scottish. This is most curious as he describes the blades and types noting, "...another type was a single cutting edge with a broad back. These are in many instances stamped with a FLEUR DE LIS others with a running dog or hare; another is marked HARVEY which cannot be made out of the British Isles, probably".

While we can imagine the running dog? is probably the Solingen wolf, and Harvey is noted by Darling (p53) as the probable source for the 'H' mark found on tangs of disassembled blades from these Scottish regimental swords......the mention of the fleur de lys is compelling.

Also interesting of course is the note regarding these single edged blades and calling it a 'broadsword'. In earlier times the term broadsword was in effect generally used often referring to what we now term 'backswords' as well as the more properly termed double edged blades . Why this is important is that it is generally held that true Scottish broadswords (i.e basket hilts) are invariably double edged . The backsword was favored in the 18th century for British dragoon regiments.

Looking further into European use of the fleur de lys on blades, in the Wallace Collection catalog (Sir James Mann, 1962) item A474 is a German two hand sword of 16th century with deep stamped fleur de lys on each blade face.

In "The Plug Bayonet" (R.D.C.Evans, p.76, #6) is the fleur de lys marking stated as being probably a French state ownership stamp, not the stamp of an individual cutler. It was used for example by some arms producers at Tulle and St Etienne who supplied arms to the Magasin Royal des Armes de Paris from 1666 onward . It is also found on Swiss military bayonets c.1680 so not always French.
The stamped fleur de lys depicted is deeply stamped and bold, not the 'artwork' type seen on our examples.

While all these references do not give us a final answer as to the probable origin of the fleur de lys marks found in common on these blades, the form does suggest they may have been placed on them after being received in England in the parcels of blades auctioned to cutlers. As often the case with trade blades they were likely produced as 'blanks' in Solingen and stamped as signifier of 'lots' or perhaps a quality mark alluding perhaps to the earlier marks in Germany or possibly French associations previously noted .

That is of course one scenario, but the question remains, why does this same mark occur on some blades of swords with apparent Continental provenance? There is the rub, are those simply misidentified or have been transported back across the channel in later dealings?

Norman McCormick · 10th June 2014, 04:44 PM

Hi,
Another sword French C1740, the sword belongs to a member over on S.F.I. and I do hope he doesn't mind me using his photos.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Sorry Jim another spanner in the works etc etc.

Norman McCormick · 10th June 2014, 04:49 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion.

I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th June 2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion.

I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

Salaams Norman, I have no problem inserting web sites provided it is logged as such and for research...clearly not associated to some purchase..thus allowed. On the Arabic I am wrong... Its funny but I switched it on just now and it is clearly a fleur de lys stamp whereas yesterday I swear I was seeing a peculiar "God is Great" stamp... I put it down to the heat (about 50 degrees yesterday !) Apologies for that.

Anyway on the website there are a couple of swords and the fleur de lys appears to be from the Scottish ... would this be because of the Franco/ Scottish allegiance at the time?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Norman McCormick · 10th June 2014, 05:48 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th June 2014, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post

Thanks Norman.. 2000 !! Thats a whole lot of ink !!

Aye! I heard that Scots go blue afore they go brown !!!
This is a fascinating thread and the factors behind the "Trio in Juncta" or "Fleur de Lys" are very interesting and Forum are lucky to have the entire Bookmobile of Jim McDougall in direct support on route 66...

Great thread Norman... Thanks.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

9th June 2014, 05:03 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	An amazing thread !! More !! I know less than nothing about these European weapons ... however, I did find this at http://www.cullodenantiques.com/page...d-weapons.html to whit there appears an equal Fleur de Lys below from that weapon not an English Dragoons Basket Hilted Backsword but a Scottish Troop Horse Grenadiers Sword Sorry Norman !! OOPS...!! This I note has already generally been pointed to earlier at #6.. but I make the correction. I note also at #9 some arabic to the blade which is a variation on the "God is Great" theme but stacked half sideways... Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th June 2014 at 05:49 PM.

10th June 2014, 04:44 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi, Another sword French C1740, the sword belongs to a member over on S.F.I. and I do hope he doesn't mind me using his photos. Regards, Norman. P.S. Sorry Jim another spanner in the works etc etc. Attached Images

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9th June 2014, 10:09 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,175	Hi Ibrahiim, Thank you for the additional pics of the interesting Culloden House item which Norman posted in #6 and noted as a basket hilted sword. As it was not specifically identified it is interesting to know that it was a horse grenadier sword. I have always considered Robert Docherty's descriptions and detail most reliable, and this is a great example. The Scottish regiments in the British army were receiving swords made in Birmingham and London for a good number of years before Culloden (1746). One of the first recordings of an actual supplier was 1759, when Nathaniel Jeffries was noted having delivered 3500 broadswords that year ( "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784" Anthony Darling, 1988 , p.13). He and Dru Drury were both actually goldsmiths, who according to Darling (p.53) probably subcontracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their workshops in London, contributing their own grips and coverings. They both stamped the blades with crown over their names in roughly similar location to these fleur de lis stamps and with similar 'artwork'. In his interesting monograph , "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" (Mowbray, 1971) Lord Archibald Campbell is describing a number of blades from the tragic battle of 1746, which were rather heinously fabricated into a fence. He claims that virtually all the blades, save about two stated from the British, were all Scottish. This is most curious as he describes the blades and types noting, "...another type was a single cutting edge with a broad back. These are in many instances stamped with a FLEUR DE LIS others with a running dog or hare; another is marked HARVEY which cannot be made out of the British Isles, probably". While we can imagine the running dog? is probably the Solingen wolf, and Harvey is noted by Darling (p53) as the probable source for the 'H' mark found on tangs of disassembled blades from these Scottish regimental swords......the mention of the fleur de lys is compelling. Also interesting of course is the note regarding these single edged blades and calling it a 'broadsword'. In earlier times the term broadsword was in effect generally used often referring to what we now term 'backswords' as well as the more properly termed double edged blades . Why this is important is that it is generally held that true Scottish broadswords (i.e basket hilts) are invariably double edged . The backsword was favored in the 18th century for British dragoon regiments. Looking further into European use of the fleur de lys on blades, in the Wallace Collection catalog (Sir James Mann, 1962) item A474 is a German two hand sword of 16th century with deep stamped fleur de lys on each blade face. In "The Plug Bayonet" (R.D.C.Evans, p.76, #6) is the fleur de lys marking stated as being probably a French state ownership stamp, not the stamp of an individual cutler. It was used for example by some arms producers at Tulle and St Etienne who supplied arms to the Magasin Royal des Armes de Paris from 1666 onward . It is also found on Swiss military bayonets c.1680 so not always French. The stamped fleur de lys depicted is deeply stamped and bold, not the 'artwork' type seen on our examples. While all these references do not give us a final answer as to the probable origin of the fleur de lys marks found in common on these blades, the form does suggest they may have been placed on them after being received in England in the parcels of blades auctioned to cutlers. As often the case with trade blades they were likely produced as 'blanks' in Solingen and stamped as signifier of 'lots' or perhaps a quality mark alluding perhaps to the earlier marks in Germany or possibly French associations previously noted . That is of course one scenario, but the question remains, why does this same mark occur on some blades of swords with apparent Continental provenance? There is the rub, are those simply misidentified or have been transported back across the channel in later dealings?

10th June 2014, 04:49 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi Ibrahiim, I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post. My Regards, Norman.

10th June 2014, 05:48 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi Ibrahiim, No apology necessary, as my name suggests I'm a 'Man of the North' and any more than 25 Deg C and I'm 'oot the game' 50 Deg C and my mind wouldn't be capable of any rational thought never mind i.d'ing a stamp in a blurry photo. I really don't think the fleur de lys stamp has anything specifically to do with the Auld Alliance and any possible association is coincidental. Thanks once again for your interest. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Congratulations on your 2000th post Last edited by Norman McCormick; 10th June 2014 at 06:10 PM.