Hunting Sword no1

Norman McCormick · 5th June 2014, 08:15 PM

Hi
Here's a better image of the 'makers' mark on my sword.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 5th June 2014, 08:29 PM

Hi,
A friend found this similar mark on a basket hilted backsword.
Regards,
Norman.

Photos, Culloden House Antiques.

fernando · 5th June 2014, 08:35 PM

A fleur de liz ... right ?

.

Norman McCormick · 5th June 2014, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

A fleur de liz ... right ?

Looks pretty much like it, now all we need is some well informed Forumite to come with an I.D.

Norman McCormick · 6th June 2014, 01:13 PM

Hi,
Found another possible example of this mark.
Regards,
Norman.

Photos, AAAWT

Norman McCormick · 6th June 2014, 01:26 PM

Hi,
Have found an assertion on the net that the mark is that of the London Cutlers Company but I cannot find any corroborating evidence for this, anybody got more info on this possibility?
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2014, 07:38 PM

Norman, you are really following through with impressive detective work on this, as always, and thank you for keeping us up to speed with findings. I think the assertion regarding the London Cutlers Co. is likely well founded as it seems the general research corresponding in other items presented by this firm appears reliable. I would suspect that checking in 'Southwick' would reveal more detail.

These court swords as well as the British dragoon sword (c.1760s) with same configuration blade and stamped marks of the fleur de lis do seem to have blades of common source. I am inclined to think these are Solingen blades imported and stamped in this period but it is puzzling to think that the London Cutlers would have used German blades. The fleur de lis, while also surprising to me to be a British mark, after looking further seem quite well placed after all.

According to Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons") notes the prevalent use of fleur de lis in the motif on swords along with Tudor roses, cherubs and royal heads in the end of 17th into 18th. Clearly the fleur de lis was present in the upper right quadrant of the Royal Arms until 1801, and the numbers of French artisans in English commercial areas was significant.

The Cutlers Company dates back to the 15th century, and there seem of course various chronological changes in organization and markings etc. but again I am puzzled by the use of what appears a German blade stamped with a mark said to be of this company.
In a Bosley's catalog of June 4, 2008 (#924) there is a brass mounted court/hunting sword described as "Continental, 18th century". There is no image but the blade is 21.5 " long and said to have fleur de lis stamp on either side of the blade.
Since England did not export blades to the Continent, then why would a mark of the London Cutlers Co. be on a sword there?

One of the primary reasons that Solingen swordsmiths ended up in England in the early to mid 17th century was to provide England itself with the benefit of these quality blades with importing them from Germany. The German swordsmiths came into Hounslow, then after that operation ceased came the Shotley Bridge enterprise which too became defunct in the early years of the 18th century. The opposition to the import of German blades remained prevalent, though as the numbers of English makers grew, there were still agents bringing in German blades into the 19th century .

Did the London Cutlers Co. actually produce blades is my question. If so, perhaps they were copying German pattern blades, where these would be readily explained.

Anybody out there have Southwick?????

Norman McCormick · 6th June 2014, 09:01 PM

Hi Jim,
Many thanks as usual for your keen interest and interesting comments. This fleur de lys mark appears to be evident on quite a few differing styles of weapons and on that note do you, or anyone else, have a copy of the American Sword 1775-1945 by Petersen. On page 48 item no 45 is a cutlass which according to the text has a fleur de lys blade mark. I would be grateful if anyone has a copy of this book could they please have a look at this cutlass and if this mark is visible in the hard copy could they post an image of it here, the copy I looked at on the net was very unclear with regard to detail. Once again Jim thanks for your interest, perhaps you could have a look at No2 and give me your impressions.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. This one has a few edge nicks which obviously begs the question, 'was this used only for hunting or ?'. A question which is guaranteed to remain unresolved.

5th June 2014, 08:15 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi Here's a better image of the 'makers' mark on my sword. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

5th June 2014, 08:29 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi, A friend found this similar mark on a basket hilted backsword. Regards, Norman. Photos, Culloden House Antiques. Attached Images

5th June 2014, 08:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A fleur de liz ... right ? . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 5th June 2014 at 08:53 PM.

6th June 2014, 01:13 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi, Found another possible example of this mark. Regards, Norman. Photos, AAAWT Attached Images

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6th June 2014, 01:26 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi, Have found an assertion on the net that the mark is that of the London Cutlers Company but I cannot find any corroborating evidence for this, anybody got more info on this possibility? Regards, Norman.

6th June 2014, 07:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,175	Norman, you are really following through with impressive detective work on this, as always, and thank you for keeping us up to speed with findings. I think the assertion regarding the London Cutlers Co. is likely well founded as it seems the general research corresponding in other items presented by this firm appears reliable. I would suspect that checking in 'Southwick' would reveal more detail. These court swords as well as the British dragoon sword (c.1760s) with same configuration blade and stamped marks of the fleur de lis do seem to have blades of common source. I am inclined to think these are Solingen blades imported and stamped in this period but it is puzzling to think that the London Cutlers would have used German blades. The fleur de lis, while also surprising to me to be a British mark, after looking further seem quite well placed after all. According to Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons") notes the prevalent use of fleur de lis in the motif on swords along with Tudor roses, cherubs and royal heads in the end of 17th into 18th. Clearly the fleur de lis was present in the upper right quadrant of the Royal Arms until 1801, and the numbers of French artisans in English commercial areas was significant. The Cutlers Company dates back to the 15th century, and there seem of course various chronological changes in organization and markings etc. but again I am puzzled by the use of what appears a German blade stamped with a mark said to be of this company. In a Bosley's catalog of June 4, 2008 (#924) there is a brass mounted court/hunting sword described as "Continental, 18th century". There is no image but the blade is 21.5 " long and said to have fleur de lis stamp on either side of the blade. Since England did not export blades to the Continent, then why would a mark of the London Cutlers Co. be on a sword there? One of the primary reasons that Solingen swordsmiths ended up in England in the early to mid 17th century was to provide England itself with the benefit of these quality blades with importing them from Germany. The German swordsmiths came into Hounslow, then after that operation ceased came the Shotley Bridge enterprise which too became defunct in the early years of the 18th century. The opposition to the import of German blades remained prevalent, though as the numbers of English makers grew, there were still agents bringing in German blades into the 19th century . Did the London Cutlers Co. actually produce blades is my question. If so, perhaps they were copying German pattern blades, where these would be readily explained. Anybody out there have Southwick?????

6th June 2014, 09:01 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,612	Hi Jim, Many thanks as usual for your keen interest and interesting comments. This fleur de lys mark appears to be evident on quite a few differing styles of weapons and on that note do you, or anyone else, have a copy of the American Sword 1775-1945 by Petersen. On page 48 item no 45 is a cutlass which according to the text has a fleur de lys blade mark. I would be grateful if anyone has a copy of this book could they please have a look at this cutlass and if this mark is visible in the hard copy could they post an image of it here, the copy I looked at on the net was very unclear with regard to detail. Once again Jim thanks for your interest, perhaps you could have a look at No2 and give me your impressions. My Regards, Norman. P.S. This one has a few edge nicks which obviously begs the question, 'was this used only for hunting or ?'. A question which is guaranteed to remain unresolved.