Another restoration question - help me, experts!

S.Workman · 30th May 2014, 06:08 PM

I have finally gotten everything I need to restore my keris, but I have run into another issue. This keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18521
is now rust free, and the metal is actually a lovely, sparkling silver, almost like schist, and the pamor, which I had thought non existent, is shining through. I have high hopes, but when I take the blade out of my acid solution, it develops a very fine yellowy - red rust within minutes or seconds. Can I apply my warangan directly over this, or will I get an ugly rust reaction? If I can't apply directly on this, how can I suppress the reaction for long enough to get an application on?

David · 30th May 2014, 07:16 PM

Just a couple of questions of my own. What are you using for an acid solution to clean the blade? Are you following specific instructions for you process that you found on this forum or somewhere else on the internet? Without a very clear and detailed step-by-step of your process it is difficult to know exactly what to tell you. Anyway, i would not apply warangan over any rust.
Photographs of your work in progress would also be helpful.

S.Workman · 30th May 2014, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Just a couple of questions of my own. What are you using for an acid solution to clean the blade? Are you following specific instructions for you process that you found on this forum or somewhere else on the internet? Without a very clear and detailed step-by-step of your process it is difficult to know exactly what to tell you. Anyway, i would not apply warangan over any rust.
Photographs of your work in progress would also be helpful.

Hello David, thanks for responding. I am in fact using instructions given me by Mr. Maisey, and supplemented by data from this site. My solution is vinegar, approximately 50%, with twice a days scrubbing with a hard bristle toothbrush. I will post some photos when I get home.

S.Workman · 30th May 2014, 09:14 PM

Hmmmm….I am having some trouble uploading pictures, once I have them sized properly, they just don't show up in the upload pictures window. It's too bad, they say a picture is worth a thousand words….
Any ideas about my rust? In the pejeten, if I am using the proper term, the appearance of this rust is instantaneous upon removal from the vinegar solution, and the process worsens as the keris dries, whether it is allowed to dry straight from the wash, or rinsed thoroughly and then dried or allowed to dry. Eventually the entire blade is dusted with this rust.

David · 30th May 2014, 09:49 PM

First a disclaimer…i am, by no means, an "expert" in the staining of keris. I have done, perhaps, a dozen or so blades, usually to satisfactory results (though my standards and expectations may be low), though often enough had a result that just wasn't acceptable. I believe Alan will tell you it is not unusual to have to stain a blade more than once to get a reasonable result.
I have always used pineapple juice as a cleaning bath an i use that solution straight. So i have no experience with using diluted vinegar. One thing you might try, if you feel that your vinegar must be diluted, is to try using distilled water. It is possible that your water might have a high iron content or some other mineral that is creating such a quickly appearing rust.

Take a good look here to see if you are uploading images correctly.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

S.Workman · 30th May 2014, 10:52 PM

OK, my iPad was the problem. Here is an image of the keris, with rust on the ascendant. If I took time-lapse pics, the whole thing would be orangey red in 5 minutes, but a submersion for just a second in the vinegar eliminates the effect. I use spring water for the dilution, but even so that seems like a heck of a lot of iron oxide to have in water, at any rate you would think you could taste that much in a quart of water, and you can't.

David · 31st May 2014, 12:33 AM

I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

I think I still need to rinse the vinegar off before applying the warangan (I hope I am using this term correctly), and then I am back to square one. Is it possible that this keris is meant to be cleaned and oiled, with no treatment?

Rick · 31st May 2014, 01:21 AM

I was expecting something quite a bit lighter in color from your description .

Is it warm enough where you are to stain right now ?
Which method are you planning to use ?

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I was expecting something quite a bit lighter in color from your description .

Is it warm enough where you are to stain right now ?
Which method are you planning to use ?

My picture is quite bad, I was hoping to convey the rust effect rather than the color (which would be altered by my treatment in any event). This weekend looks rainy where I am, but warm. If it looks like I will get a few hours window and the humidity blows over, I will try a stain, using the As2O3 method since I was able to get the required material. That won't happen if I don't get some good advice on how to proceed with the creeping rust issue, since I won't waste the material or time on something that is sure to fail, which I think would be the case trying to stain over this rust. We will have to see, if nothing else restoring these two keris has been an exercise in patience.

kai · 31st May 2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:

when I take the blade out of my acid solution, it develops a very fine yellowy - red rust within minutes or seconds. Can I apply my warangan directly over this, or will I get an ugly rust reaction?

I have seen this happening with some blades.

First, you really have to make sure that there are no stubborn rust patches remaining on the blade; the warangan will still work on the clean metal but the longterm stability of the stain as well as the preservation of the blade may be compromised. From the last pic, I believe I do see remaining rust down in the blumbangan area. I'd also double-check all pitted areas and other crevices for "deep" rust: a set of fine needles, 10x (or so) magnification, and good light can do wonders.

Once this old rust is taken care of, I haven't experienced that a hue of powdery instant surface rust is really an issue for the warangan process. I usually move directly from the acid solution (vinegar or pineapple juice) to warangan. However, I prefer to wipe the wet blade with pure lime juice (several times if "dirt" is still coming off) to avoid wasting the precious arsenic and lime mix.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 31st May 2014, 11:48 AM

Quote:

I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

I'm with David. While I don't think that the water is the issue here, I strongly recommend to utilize DI water for diluting things - a gallon of pure water is cheap enough to have around at home. Spring and, even more so, well water can have really funny effects!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 31st May 2014, 11:53 AM

Quote:

I think I still need to rinse the vinegar off before applying the warangan (I hope I am using this term correctly), and then I am back to square one. Is it possible that this keris is meant to be cleaned and oiled, with no treatment?

No, just go ahead! Much of this is trial and error until you've gained enough experience.

Regards,
Kai

GIO · 31st May 2014, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

I have finally gotten everything I need to restore my keris, but I have run into another issue. This keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18521
is now rust free, and the metal is actually a lovely, sparkling silver, almost like schist, and the pamor, which I had thought non existent, is shining through. I have high hopes, but when I take the blade out of my acid solution, it develops a very fine yellowy - red rust within minutes or seconds. Can I apply my warangan directly over this, or will I get an ugly rust reaction? If I can't apply directly on this, how can I suppress the reaction for long enough to get an application on?

The light rust patina is not a problem. Once you have eliminated all the deep rust, cleaned the blade from oil and grease and dried it, you can start with the warangan. Since the warangan contains lime (or lemon), this will immediately eliminate the yellowish patina of rust on the blade.
Remember that etching a blade is not an exact science: the results depend upon the weather conditions, quality of the arsenious mineral, and first of all (at least in my opinion) type of iron. According to several experts, a bright sun would help, but, according to my experience, I cannot confirm this.
A friend collector has made an etching in a cold winter, and, he told me,
with unexpected good results.
Don't get discouraged if the first attempts will not be satisfactory. Try again and again. Once, after endless treatments with warangan, I decided to give up and I rinsed the blade in water. At this point the pamor immediately appeared ! I am still astonished.
We are all interested in seeing pics of the results, even if unsatisfactory.
Good chance

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2014, 05:46 PM

To my eyes, this is an unusual and unexpected result from what has been described. Incidentally, I do dilute strong acids, such as sulphuric or hydrochloric, I do not dilute vinegar. An acid that you put your salad is never, ever going to hurt any ferric material.

I would suggest scrubbing the blade with lime juice and a tooth brush until the blade is clean of any reddish or brownish discolouration, then rinse and dry thoroughly. You can rinse and dry the blade between every few applications if the dirt builds up.

When the blade is clean, immediately brush with lime juice again, and then immediately begin the staining process.

The lime juice must be freshly squeezed tahitian limes, strained so there is no solid matter, and filtered through a piece of clean old linen --- I use a worn out old handerchief.

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 07:00 PM

Got it! Alan has said before, I think in the "repatinating keris" instructions somewhere on this site, to neutralize the acid with baking soda. I had rinsed the blade under water, and seeing the immediate discoloration, had placed the blade back in the solution. Today, I scrubbed the blade down with a soda slurry, towel dried then blow dried it, and no rust appeared, although the color was dull compared to the colors presented when the blade is wet. I put the keris back into a straight vinegar bath, and I am hoping that tomorrow ends up fair, it is supposed to be warmish and mostly sunny. I have my yarn wrap ready for the tangs, and the small split on one hulu fixed so I may have something to show by tomorrow night. I will post photos, whatever the results.
Then I can show you all another keris I got.

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2014, 08:49 PM

Yes, a slurry of bicarbonate of soda, brushed on and left for a couple of minutes, then rinsed thoroughly and dried will stop any acid action.

I use this when I'm staining damascus, but I don't use it on keris, because before you begin to stain the keris it helps if you sensitise the blade with the same acid that you use to mix the arsenic:- lime juice.

However, I seem to recall that you're going for just a light acid finish now? Problems with getting arsenic? In that case kill the acid with the bicarb and you probably should get an acceptable result.

It is possible just to brush the vinegar, or whatever you use. It takes longer, but its easier to control. If the blade comes up too dark you could try rubbing it with lime skin---the inside of the skin--- under running water.

David · 31st May 2014, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, I seem to recall that you're going for just a light acid finish now? Problems with getting arsenic? In that case kill the acid with the bicarb and you probably should get an acceptable result.

If you read back Alan i believe you will see that he did in fact manage to get hold of some lab quality arsenic.

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 10:50 PM

Just a quick update, photos to follow when the keris are reassembled. The weather turned pleasant, so I spent the afternoon working on the blades. My problematic "rusty" keris did not respond to the wash in any way, there was literally no change from the freshly soaked blade. Thats OK with me, I just oiled the blade and set it aside. The other, smoother blade responded spectacularly, with very defined and bright lines of pamor on a dark ground. It may actually be darker than would be preferable, but there were some problems getting a good finish on those formerly rusty patches, so I sort of blended the wash in overall. Its a whole new keris. Like I said, photos to follow. Thanks again for everyones interest and help. This has been an exercise in patience for me most definitely, and a great way to understand this most fascinating artifact. They certainly have personality.

A. G. Maisey · 1st June 2014, 08:49 PM

Yes, I see.

Thanks David.

S.Workman · 1st June 2014, 09:33 PM

Today I treated both keris with clove oil, and I was noticing that the metal of the rougher keris is very pebbly, almost foamy, and seems almost porous toward the tip. Also, the keris is exhibiting the same sulphury, slightly unpleasant smell it had when I first got it. The clove oil subdued it (of course, I think the right amount would subdue the smell of a plague city), but it made me wonder if this is made of the sulphur rich iron Alan M. had mentioned. It might account for the recurring yellowy orange powder, the smell, and the weak, porous metal. Or would it? It's a very curious thing, and I would love to know more but I think once I reattach the hulu I am done with this keris. There seems to be some degeneration of the metal at the tip, and eventually I will be doing more harm than good.

30th May 2014, 06:08 PM	#1
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Another restoration question - help me, experts! I have finally gotten everything I need to restore my keris, but I have run into another issue. This keris: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18521 is now rust free, and the metal is actually a lovely, sparkling silver, almost like schist, and the pamor, which I had thought non existent, is shining through. I have high hopes, but when I take the blade out of my acid solution, it develops a very fine yellowy - red rust within minutes or seconds. Can I apply my warangan directly over this, or will I get an ugly rust reaction? If I can't apply directly on this, how can I suppress the reaction for long enough to get an application on?

30th May 2014, 10:52 PM	#6
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	OK, my iPad was the problem. Here is an image of the keris, with rust on the ascendant. If I took time-lapse pics, the whole thing would be orangey red in 5 minutes, but a submersion for just a second in the vinegar eliminates the effect. I use spring water for the dilution, but even so that seems like a heck of a lot of iron oxide to have in water, at any rate you would think you could taste that much in a quart of water, and you can't. Attached Images

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30th May 2014, 07:16 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Just a couple of questions of my own. What are you using for an acid solution to clean the blade? Are you following specific instructions for you process that you found on this forum or somewhere else on the internet? Without a very clear and detailed step-by-step of your process it is difficult to know exactly what to tell you. Anyway, i would not apply warangan over any rust. Photographs of your work in progress would also be helpful.

30th May 2014, 09:14 PM	#4
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Hmmmm….I am having some trouble uploading pictures, once I have them sized properly, they just don't show up in the upload pictures window. It's too bad, they say a picture is worth a thousand words…. Any ideas about my rust? In the pejeten, if I am using the proper term, the appearance of this rust is instantaneous upon removal from the vinegar solution, and the process worsens as the keris dries, whether it is allowed to dry straight from the wash, or rinsed thoroughly and then dried or allowed to dry. Eventually the entire blade is dusted with this rust.

30th May 2014, 09:49 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	First a disclaimer…i am, by no means, an "expert" in the staining of keris. I have done, perhaps, a dozen or so blades, usually to satisfactory results (though my standards and expectations may be low), though often enough had a result that just wasn't acceptable. I believe Alan will tell you it is not unusual to have to stain a blade more than once to get a reasonable result. I have always used pineapple juice as a cleaning bath an i use that solution straight. So i have no experience with using diluted vinegar. One thing you might try, if you feel that your vinegar must be diluted, is to try using distilled water. It is possible that your water might have a high iron content or some other mineral that is creating such a quickly appearing rust. Take a good look here to see if you are uploading images correctly. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

31st May 2014, 12:33 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

31st May 2014, 01:21 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I was expecting something quite a bit lighter in color from your description . Is it warm enough where you are to stain right now ? Which method are you planning to use ?

31st May 2014, 05:46 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	To my eyes, this is an unusual and unexpected result from what has been described. Incidentally, I do dilute strong acids, such as sulphuric or hydrochloric, I do not dilute vinegar. An acid that you put your salad is never, ever going to hurt any ferric material. I would suggest scrubbing the blade with lime juice and a tooth brush until the blade is clean of any reddish or brownish discolouration, then rinse and dry thoroughly. You can rinse and dry the blade between every few applications if the dirt builds up. When the blade is clean, immediately brush with lime juice again, and then immediately begin the staining process. The lime juice must be freshly squeezed tahitian limes, strained so there is no solid matter, and filtered through a piece of clean old linen --- I use a worn out old handerchief.

31st May 2014, 07:00 PM	#16
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Got it! Alan has said before, I think in the "repatinating keris" instructions somewhere on this site, to neutralize the acid with baking soda. I had rinsed the blade under water, and seeing the immediate discoloration, had placed the blade back in the solution. Today, I scrubbed the blade down with a soda slurry, towel dried then blow dried it, and no rust appeared, although the color was dull compared to the colors presented when the blade is wet. I put the keris back into a straight vinegar bath, and I am hoping that tomorrow ends up fair, it is supposed to be warmish and mostly sunny. I have my yarn wrap ready for the tangs, and the small split on one hulu fixed so I may have something to show by tomorrow night. I will post photos, whatever the results. Then I can show you all another keris I got.

31st May 2014, 08:49 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, a slurry of bicarbonate of soda, brushed on and left for a couple of minutes, then rinsed thoroughly and dried will stop any acid action. I use this when I'm staining damascus, but I don't use it on keris, because before you begin to stain the keris it helps if you sensitise the blade with the same acid that you use to mix the arsenic:- lime juice. However, I seem to recall that you're going for just a light acid finish now? Problems with getting arsenic? In that case kill the acid with the bicarb and you probably should get an acceptable result. It is possible just to brush the vinegar, or whatever you use. It takes longer, but its easier to control. If the blade comes up too dark you could try rubbing it with lime skin---the inside of the skin--- under running water.

31st May 2014, 10:50 PM	#19
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Just a quick update, photos to follow when the keris are reassembled. The weather turned pleasant, so I spent the afternoon working on the blades. My problematic "rusty" keris did not respond to the wash in any way, there was literally no change from the freshly soaked blade. Thats OK with me, I just oiled the blade and set it aside. The other, smoother blade responded spectacularly, with very defined and bright lines of pamor on a dark ground. It may actually be darker than would be preferable, but there were some problems getting a good finish on those formerly rusty patches, so I sort of blended the wash in overall. Its a whole new keris. Like I said, photos to follow. Thanks again for everyones interest and help. This has been an exercise in patience for me most definitely, and a great way to understand this most fascinating artifact. They certainly have personality.

1st June 2014, 08:49 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, I see. Thanks David.

1st June 2014, 09:33 PM	#21
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Today I treated both keris with clove oil, and I was noticing that the metal of the rougher keris is very pebbly, almost foamy, and seems almost porous toward the tip. Also, the keris is exhibiting the same sulphury, slightly unpleasant smell it had when I first got it. The clove oil subdued it (of course, I think the right amount would subdue the smell of a plague city), but it made me wonder if this is made of the sulphur rich iron Alan M. had mentioned. It might account for the recurring yellowy orange powder, the smell, and the weak, porous metal. Or would it? It's a very curious thing, and I would love to know more but I think once I reattach the hulu I am done with this keris. There seems to be some degeneration of the metal at the tip, and eventually I will be doing more harm than good.