A STORTA for comments

Skarts_ss · 26th April 2014, 03:04 PM

I couldn't afford to buy a good preserved Storta, so i started with this one. All comments welcome.

eftihis · 26th April 2014, 10:36 PM

It looks crap to me!!!!!!!!!!

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2014, 12:09 AM

Hi Skarts,
I prefer no to be quite so blunt, but must agree that while this does have all the features of a storta 'by the numbers', it appears to be artificially aged and a deceptive product. It is always discouraging to try to acquire good representative examples of classic arms, and important to learn as much on them as possible as well as check authentic examples in museums and collections. One must even be wary and deal with reputable sources but even then with caution.
Hang in there!!

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 27th April 2014, 12:25 PM

I expect this to be an authenic sword.

norman pommel type 12 and hilt type 10.
not really a storta because the blade is not running out towards the point.

but a (later) version of a single edged broadsword.
can be dated to somewhere between 1600 and 1625

best,

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2014, 04:38 PM

Thank you Jasper, and as always your sound experience with these arms is highly respected. With your observation naturally I regret my assessment that this example might be more modern and that the aging seemed unusual and possibly artificial.

I agree this sword does correspond with the types you note, and though visually similar to some Italian swords, not necessarily the storta.
Can you offer some observations on the unusual and erratic corrosion and patchy variations in the patterns? It would seem that in an excavated example, as this I believe would be presumed, that there would be dark patination and presence of goethite in that.
Is it possible that the deterioration within has become extensive enough that active rust (not usually apparent on old, long deposited items) has become prevalent from within?
I had an old cannon ball for many years almost black with such goethite patination, rough (like an orange) ....then it suddenly began to come apart with orange rust from within, and virtually disintegrated. This sword seems entirely intact and the components sound and undistorted.

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 27th April 2014, 07:35 PM

Hi Jim,

thank you.
it is my personal opinion, not a hard truth.
orange red rust is a warning that it can be a recent oxidation, however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise. see for example the hilt 14th century sword/waterfind for conservation.

further I noticed that a part of the "storta" hilt is eaten away, and that the tip is broken off and re-welded, that you actually do not see in recent forgeries.

Furthermore, the value of this 17th century sword in excavated state is lower than the cost of making such a falsification.

best,

Skarts_ss · 27th April 2014, 08:56 PM

Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Jim,

thank you.
it is my personal opinion, not a hard truth.
orange red rust is a warning that it can be a recent oxidation, however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise. see for example the hilt 14th century sword/waterfind for conservation.

further I noticed that a part of the "storta" hilt is eaten away, and that the tip is broken off and re-welded, that you actually do not see in recent forgeries.

Furthermore, the value of this 17th century sword in excavated state is lower than the cost of making such a falsification.

best,

Again, thank you Jasper for the informative and well explained observations, and your points are well placed. I did not see the rewelded tip and the corroded away part of the hilt (I really do have new glasses pending

so what you say is entirely understandable about feasibility of reproduction.

I am glad for Skarts, as I would rather have a positive assessment and it is good of you to add your very valid comments. While this example is in rough condition, I would rather have a soundly historic piece than one which is pristine but of questionable pedigree.

All the very best,
Jim

fernando · 28th April 2014, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

... Jim you broke my heart!!!!!...

Well, i confess i was about to also break your heart but, after Jasper comments, i decided to remit myself to silence

.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

Skarts, I must admit I am delighted to be wrong here !!!

and I am so thankful Jasper entered in on this. What is most important to note is that in the study of these arms, it is all entirely a learning curve, and in this case thanks to his stellar knowledge on these arms, not only have I learned something new, but hopefully all of us have.
It is never about being right or wrong, but about having the most correct data prevail, and learning from discussions which resolve these situations.

Congratulations on your sword, and if I may, in any preservation you attend to it, please remember maximum restraint and focus on stabilizing any active rust. These old swords have well earned the patination (to me I think of it as 'history' incarnate

and respect.

All very best regards,
Jim

A Senefelder · 28th April 2014, 06:36 PM

Quote:

however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise.

Sure does. I get my wrought iron from a length of river that once had 20 19th century mills along 1/8 of mile that were destroyed in a dam burst 100 years ago. Every piece I've ever fished out of the water will very quickly do exactly this until I clean it for use in forging. They all have the same surface appearance of the OP's sword once they come out of the river and dry.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 06:53 PM

Good points Alan. I wonder then if this sword might have indeed been in situ in a water oriented situation before excavation, and this rusty state been the result of not observing proper conservation processes?
In many cases I am sure, amateur finds end up in these circumstances and this reinforces all the fuss and painstaking process observed in the proper conservation and stabilizing of underwater discoveries.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd May 2014, 05:11 PM

Salaams all... I think it shows how difficult it is...to avoid the fakes. As this sword was unfolding at #1, I said to myself...'acid ...false patina' etc as I am sure a few other members have done ... but then reading the posts there is always doubt...and as Senefelder notes that is what blades/metal looks like after being in the water for 100 years. Quicker processing in acid has a similar effect..though it would be useful to have a chart of corrosion of blades in various substances..earth, water , acid, sea water etc..maybe there is a metalurgist out there with some sort of chart?
Sometimes a good idea as to authenticity comes in the price... It costs money to process blades and usually forgeries demand high prices.
Just my few cents worth...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A Senefelder · 2nd May 2014, 06:07 PM

For what its worth, the quillions appear to be iron. I'm seeing the tennonish " woodlike " grain in the places where the material has perished that I see in the old wrought iron I get. Wrought iron stopped being made back in the early 1960's and was not of the same quality as older iron. Most folks who obtain wrought iron today get it from old sources, such as scraped wrought iron fence or like a I know fella who used to blade make in Nova Scotia who obtained a big old anchor dreged up out of a bay that was over 100 years old.

27th April 2014, 07:35 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Jim, thank you. it is my personal opinion, not a hard truth. orange red rust is a warning that it can be a recent oxidation, however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise. see for example the hilt 14th century sword/waterfind for conservation. further I noticed that a part of the "storta" hilt is eaten away, and that the tip is broken off and re-welded, that you actually do not see in recent forgeries. Furthermore, the value of this 17th century sword in excavated state is lower than the cost of making such a falsification. best, Attached Images

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26th April 2014, 03:04 PM	#1
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	A STORTA for comments I couldn't afford to buy a good preserved Storta, so i started with this one. All comments welcome. Attached Images

26th April 2014, 10:36 PM	#2
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	It looks crap to me!!!!!!!!!!

27th April 2014, 12:09 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Skarts, I prefer no to be quite so blunt, but must agree that while this does have all the features of a storta 'by the numbers', it appears to be artificially aged and a deceptive product. It is always discouraging to try to acquire good representative examples of classic arms, and important to learn as much on them as possible as well as check authentic examples in museums and collections. One must even be wary and deal with reputable sources but even then with caution. Hang in there!! All the best, Jim

27th April 2014, 12:25 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	I expect this to be an authenic sword. norman pommel type 12 and hilt type 10. not really a storta because the blade is not running out towards the point. but a (later) version of a single edged broadsword. can be dated to somewhere between 1600 and 1625 best,

27th April 2014, 04:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you Jasper, and as always your sound experience with these arms is highly respected. With your observation naturally I regret my assessment that this example might be more modern and that the aging seemed unusual and possibly artificial. I agree this sword does correspond with the types you note, and though visually similar to some Italian swords, not necessarily the storta. Can you offer some observations on the unusual and erratic corrosion and patchy variations in the patterns? It would seem that in an excavated example, as this I believe would be presumed, that there would be dark patination and presence of goethite in that. Is it possible that the deterioration within has become extensive enough that active rust (not usually apparent on old, long deposited items) has become prevalent from within? I had an old cannon ball for many years almost black with such goethite patination, rough (like an orange) ....then it suddenly began to come apart with orange rust from within, and virtually disintegrated. This sword seems entirely intact and the components sound and undistorted. All the best, Jim

27th April 2014, 08:56 PM	#7
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

28th April 2014, 06:53 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Good points Alan. I wonder then if this sword might have indeed been in situ in a water oriented situation before excavation, and this rusty state been the result of not observing proper conservation processes? In many cases I am sure, amateur finds end up in these circumstances and this reinforces all the fuss and painstaking process observed in the proper conservation and stabilizing of underwater discoveries.

2nd May 2014, 05:11 PM	#13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... I think it shows how difficult it is...to avoid the fakes. As this sword was unfolding at #1, I said to myself...'acid ...false patina' etc as I am sure a few other members have done ... but then reading the posts there is always doubt...and as Senefelder notes that is what blades/metal looks like after being in the water for 100 years. Quicker processing in acid has a similar effect..though it would be useful to have a chart of corrosion of blades in various substances..earth, water , acid, sea water etc..maybe there is a metalurgist out there with some sort of chart? Sometimes a good idea as to authenticity comes in the price... It costs money to process blades and usually forgeries demand high prices. Just my few cents worth... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

2nd May 2014, 06:07 PM	#14
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	For what its worth, the quillions appear to be iron. I'm seeing the tennonish " woodlike " grain in the places where the material has perished that I see in the old wrought iron I get. Wrought iron stopped being made back in the early 1960's and was not of the same quality as older iron. Most folks who obtain wrought iron today get it from old sources, such as scraped wrought iron fence or like a I know fella who used to blade make in Nova Scotia who obtained a big old anchor dreged up out of a bay that was over 100 years old.