Bronze cannon for possible ID

[M ELEY]

To my untrained eye, it looks like the ending is an 'EU' vs 'EI". The last identified letter seems to curve that way. Perhaps ending in '-eus', like 'Perseus' or "Maritaneus'. The construction of the gun itself, being bronze and relatively plain compared to most Spanish and Portuguese pieces makes me think another nation. As most nations highly decorated their pieces, could this perhaps be from one of Portugal's colonies? I keep thinking that it looks rather like many of the early petraroes I've seen. Not as decorative as the lantakas, more plain, but some were undecorated I believe. The Portuguese and Dutch were throughout Indonesia and Borneo. Could it have been made in Brunei or being shipped to such places? Very much thinking aloud, so don't mind me!

Just noticed that the trunnions are not centered on the sides of the barrel. We see this on smaller swivel guns and cannons meant to be angled sharply downwards on a ship. Perhaps this detail may help in identifying nation?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

To my untrained eye, it looks like the ending is an 'EU' vs 'EI". The last identified letter seems to curve that way. Perhaps ending in '-eus', like 'Perseus' or "Maritaneus'. The construction of the gun itself, being bronze and relatively plain compared to most Spanish and Portuguese pieces makes me think another nation. As most nations highly decorated their pieces, could this perhaps be from one of Portugal's colonies? I keep thinking that it looks rather like many of the early petraroes I've seen. Not as decorative as the lantakas, more plain, but some were undecorated I believe. The Portuguese and Dutch were throughout Indonesia and Borneo. Could it have been made in Brunei or being shipped to such places? Very much thinking aloud, so don't mind me!

Just noticed that the trunnions are not centered on the sides of the barrel. We see this on smaller swivel guns and cannons meant to be angled sharply downwards on a ship. Perhaps this detail may help in identifying nation?

Ah, Captain ... i though you'd never come
Not that my eyes are sharper than yours (much older than you ) but i don't see in the faded letters the kind of composition you are aiming at .
I agree that Portuguese (and Spanish) guns would have more decoration, Royal insignias and all. But when you think about great conflicts requiring gun casting under emergency needs, i don't know.
One non solid possibility is that this cannon was equiping a ship of the Invencible Armada which, after all odds, ended up wrecking all over. The basic fleet departure was Lisbon and the return of the surviving ships was in Galicia, not far from my hometown.
... And it is assumed that a great number of the Spanish cannons were made in a hurry and assumedly of low quality.
Yes, we had foundries in Asia (Goa and so), but i don't see them cannons coming all the way to wreck in my shore; and those would be also decorated all the same ... or again, not.
One detail that would put some light into this is the lower short inscription; not being the casting date, as the figures look more like letters than numbers, it could be the foundry place.
Not sure whether the trunions are not centered, or passive of optical ilusion in the pictures; will go around the place where it stays (close from my habitat), to check it at naked eye.
I thank you anyway for your input; it keeps the thing warm

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[M ELEY]

Yes, I just had to comment on it, as I am the Captain! Your points are all solid and much better than my meager guesswork.
Every time I look at those letters, especially on the end, I think I see something else! Hope someone might be able to get the foundry. That would definitely help.

[fernando]

C'mon Mark,
Having you in the thread, is already a satisfaction
Besides, i am also being a guesser; maybe not a so 'meager' one, as i am a food devourer and carry a 'fat' belly... oops, sounds more like a joke in my language .
I have had a local suggestion that it could be Dutch ... later captured by Portuguese, during these endless wars in the XVII century; i don't know.
One sure thing though is that, it was common practice in the period nations equiping their ships with foreign cannons ... captured and acquired.
You were right in that the trunions are placed well below the barrel center; but i have checked cannons from various origins, in a catalogue of the Lisbon Nany Museum (and not only), and i don't find this to be a pattern of a determined country.
The person who suggested Dutch origin also suggested the word ADMIRAL for the upper inscription left half; something i have already considered but, don't know why, have abandoned. But i reckon it is a heavy weight possibility.


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[M ELEY]

Is the word 'Admiral' spelled the same in Dutch? Very interesting possibility! My last comment I can even think to ask is, what is the bore of the gun and if it tells us anything? I know certain eras didn't have certain sizes and likewise, certain countries didn't use certain sizes. An example of what I'm saying (as I'm not doing so good a job!) were the 2-pounders used by colonial Americans, but the Brits and French smallest bore size was 4-pounder. An era-related cannon bore example were 6-pounders, which were later 18th/early 19th c. affairs, I believe. Just more guesses on how to approach this mystery gun-

[cornelistromp]

in the last years of the 16th century , five different Dutch admiralty colleges were established, In 1795, in the Netherlands and Belgium the designation is Admiralty (admiraliteit) replaced by navy (marine):

the five admiralty colleges were:
1.Amsterdam
2.Rotterdam
3.Friesland
4.Zeeland
5 Hoorn and Enkhuizen


if you read embossing, one can read indeed ADMIRAITEIT and below the letters

ESL


So the conclusion is that the cannon may have belonged to the Dutch Admiralty friesland

ADMIRALITEIT
FRIESLAND

for an early one please see

http://www.friesscheepvaartmuseum.nl...n/Admiraliteit

best,
Jasper

[fernando]

Thank you ever so much for the exelent shot, Jasper.
I took this long to react as i have been tying to absorve the most possible in this Admiraliteit issue. I have managed to contact a researcher of Dutch Navy history and a Dutch cannon enthusiast (Nico Brinck). The Friesland Admiralty origin appears to be consistent.
However, my doubts on a 'mispell' are not vanished, as i have transmitted them to those contacts and now i also put them to you. There are two letters, if i well discern, an apparent D in Admiraliteit and an apparent O in Friesland, that don't fit in the suggested word composition. This is rather an important detail, once there are no coat of arms or other legends to support this cannon origin.

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[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... what is the bore of the gun and if it tells us anything? I know certain eras didn't have certain sizes and likewise, certain countries didn't use certain sizes...

Ah Mark, you are perfectly right ... but this thing of determining a gun calibre is a bone hard to chew You have the concept of the pound weight along time, the gun windage (gap between ball and bore) varying per country criteria, type of gun, founder techniques and so, the wearing of the gun after several shots ... you name it.
This could be a 14 pounder, as hardly a 12 and more hardly a 15

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Originally Posted by ... what is the bore of the gun and if it tells us anything? I know certain eras didn't have certain sizes and likewise, certain countries didn't use certain sizes...

Originally Posted by fernando

...Ah Mark, you are perfectly right ... but this thing of determining a gun calibre is a bone hard to chew You have the concept of the pound weight along time, the gun windage (gap between ball and bore) varying per country criteria, type of gun, founder techniques and so, the wearing of the gun after several shots ... you name it.
This could be a 14 pounder, as hardly a 12 and more hardly a 15

I thought i should quote Nico Brinck's words in the caliber issue; let me reconsider my previous estimate ... now appointing to a 12 pounder.

A bore of 123mm means a calibre of 13 Amsterdam pounds. Friesland used Amsterdam pounds of 494 grams.
But there was standardization which demanded that the guns should be 6, 8, 12, 18, 24 or 36 pounders. The 12pdr had a bore diametre of about 120mm and an 18pdr had about 14 mm. And there would be plenty windage so the diametre of the shot would be around 110-115mm
So this is most likely a cannon with a worn bore, perhaps by multiple firing or by erosion from the sea.