Left hand dagger for comments

[M ELEY]

That is a spectacular piece, Fernando! You have an amazing ability to find the most desirable pieces! Do my weak eyes play tricks, or does the blade have traces of silver overlay? I'd love one of these for my collection!

[fernando]

Thank you for your flattering comments, Mark. I wish i had a collection based on such reality .
And no, no overlay. The visual efffects that are tricking you are due to the light reflex of excelent pictures taken by the seller.
But an effect that is tricking me is what i suspect to have been the maker's mark, faded by time and wear... which is a pity .
(Both pictures from same front side)

.

[Jim McDougall]

Nando, this is I agree a wonderful piece, and I would as always, agree with Jasper's assessment in period. The German and Italian arms producers, as well as Spain, were so closely connected in diffused styles and most factors in arms and armor it would be hard to say which provenance.
This seems to have been heavily cleaned and regrettably the makers poincon is badly indiscernible, especially with the flashback in photos.
Perhaps once in hand in varying lighting it might be more viewable.

Excellent question on the curious parallel ridges and bulge in the ring loop guard, and whether simply motif or associated with production is hard to say. They of course would probably not have any specific purpose, but the ring itself would be a guard to prevent a blade from sliding toward the hand.

All the best
Jim

[M ELEY]

I always wondered if the rings on these were used to try and catch the blade's point, much as the long quillons were used? Being that its used in conjunction with the rapier, such a design for deflecting and possibly pinning the blade tip.

Thinking through that some more, I guess it wouldn't make sense to allow the point of an opponent's blade to pass through the ring along the defender's hand!! Interesting why they left the ring open on these early pieces, which later became closed guards...

[Robert]

Hello Fernando, I must agree with the others that this is a most wonderful dagger and that I am quite impressed with the condition it is in for its age. Have you tried doing a rubbing of the makers mark yet? Sometimes they will reveal things not readily seen by the naked eye. My congratulations to you on being able to acquire this very nice piece.

Best,
Robert

[fernando]

Thank you guys for all your comments.
Yes Jim, your assessmentts on either provenance and ring are more than correct. I have read an article in that a modern study was made on the effectiveness of the use on these daggers parrying ring, before and after its inplementation; te result was largely explicit.
Good points on the parrying issue, Mark; still my question goes for the 'grooves' on the lower part of the ring... as if these were an aiming back sight (sorry the fantasy). However it would be a further long shot to consider those as a 'rail' for the opponents sword to slide in for the breaking move. May i assume, by the way, that i am not a keen follower of the blade breaker system/s, as an actual effective procedure .
Thank you for your compliments and the heads up on the mark clearing, Robert. I must say however that, what has to be rubbed, was already done by the seller's (zealous) cleaning of this piece; no brighter image may longer show up. I will stand glad to, at least, ensure that there is a mark on this blade ... whatever it is

[Robert]

Hello Fernando, What I meant by a "rubbing" is not a cleaning method. It is when you take a piece of paper, place it over the section of blade that has the makers mark and then using a pencil held so the graphite is at about a 45 deg angle rub it back and forth on the paper gently to reveal the makers mark on the blade underneath. As I am not very good at explaining how this is done, I would recommend a quick Google search on how to make a rubbing.

Best,
Robert

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you guys for all your comments.
Yes Jim, your assessmentts on either provenance and ring are more than correct. I have read an article in that a modern study was made on the effectiveness of the use on these daggers parrying ring, before and after its inplementation; te result was largely explicit.
Good points on the parrying issue, Mark; still my question goes for the 'grooves' on the lower part of the ring... as if these were an aiming back sight (sorry the fantasy). However it would be a further long shot to consider those as a 'rail' for the opponents sword to slide in for the breaking move. May i assume, by the way, that i am not a keen follower of the blade breaker system/s, as an actual effective procedure .
Thank you for your compliments and the heads up on the mark clearing, Robert. I must say however that, what has to be rubbed, was already done by the seller's (zealous) cleaning of this piece; no brighter image may longer show up. I will stand glad to, at least, ensure that there is a mark on this blade ... whatever it is

Thank you Nando,
The curious parallel ridges at the bottom of this ring become more of a conundrum, as they seem quite deliberately placed, and outside the normal placement for aesthetic motif. There would seem to be some more pragmatic answer for their presence, but the oft suggested ideas of these or any of the left hand daggers as sword breakers has been regarded by most of the venerable writers as mostly edged weapons lore. The reference most readily at hand being Egerton.
It does seem like the ridges might have some sort of purpose though, and I begin to think of the somewhat mysterious gunner's (bombardiers) stilettos of these periods. Egerton notes that by the 17th century as these daggers in fencing began the end of their use, they had become of a 'reduced' type with blades approximating the stiletto and with a ring guard (p.246).

It would seem to me that the earlier versions of these must have had turks heads on the gripwork, while this has ferrules, more consistant with 17th c (and I would defer to Jasper for verification of that assumption).

It would be interesting to see if rings with these curious parallel 'slots' exist on other ring guards of these periods. Perhaps more context might lead toward plausible purposes for them .

All the best,
Jim