French 1882 Sabre

[neekee]

Thanks Fernando and Iibrahim for the interesting comments.

In France there is a popular belief that a cross on a weapon means "1 kill". Of course there is no way to know when or for what reason such a cross would be made. ^^

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by neekee

Thanks Fernando and Iibrahim for the interesting comments.

In France there is a popular belief that a cross on a weapon means "1 kill". Of course there is no way to know when or for what reason such a cross would be made. ^^

Hi Neekee,
I'm most curious about this tally marking for 'kills' as you note is believed to be customary in France. Can you note where this information might be found?

The history of dueling is of course, colorful and intriguing, and I have often had occasion to look into it in varying degree. While there have always been rather glorifying or embellished accounts of these events, as far as I have ever known, no physical tallying of 'kills' or duels fought have ever been applied to weapons. There is no denying that 'duels' of sorts did exist in France, much as in Germany and other parts of Europe, these were most often rather 'ceremonial' despite the more rare occasions where genuine combat duels did result in loss of life or injury . However swords such as these later forms, as Fernando has noted , were not intended for combat, nor of course dueling.

This returns the question to, what would these 'x's represent? I don't believe these are the result of any set or standard kind of marks despite the fact that triple Xs can be associated with many possible symbolisms. Why they are there would be anybody's guess, particularly in this odd location in the grip.

For library refs and further reading, these are the resources I checked:
"The Secret History of the Sword" J.Cristoph Amberger, 1999
I subscribed to his Hammerterz Verlag for some years in 1990s. He has personally fought seven of the 'mensur duels in Germany (1985-87)

"Sword & Masque", J.Palff-Alpar, 1967

"Duelling:Cult of Honor in Fin de Siecle Germany" Kevin McAleer, 1994, p.195
Chapters on dueling in France.

"By the Sword", 2002, Richard Cohen, p.317
extensive detail on fencing, dueling and sword history

The triple poincons on the blade would be for the director, controller and reviser at Chatellerault.

As Ibrahiim has noted, some military swords were indeed used in these 'duels, however there were apparently threaded apertures in the blade where a plate was secured to prevent severe injury. Serious duels were apparently fought with the epee, with the rare occasion as noted of use of a sabre.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Ibrahiim has noted, some military swords were indeed used in these 'duels, however there were apparently threaded apertures in the blade where a plate was secured to prevent severe injury.

Some relation with the XVIII century fencing foil discipline, with their points protected with a blossom ... thus the name fleuret . Wilder practitioners could always take the knob off and engage into more serious duels.
It looks like women from the period also went into such exercizes

.

[Richard G]

Three points:-

Isn't this sword in its scabbard the wrong way round? Does it enter the scabbard both ways? I know nothing of French swords, but this seems unusual.

I have always understood that in 1914 British cavalry had their swords sharpened before embarking for France and officers were instructed to sharpen theirs. It is sometimes quoted, as evidence of the stupidity of the military, that in 1939 officers were again ordered to "sharpen their swords".

I would not discount use of the sword in colonial wars or peacekeeping operations prior to WW2 if you really want the macabre explanation of the "crosses".

Regards
Richard

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Three points:-

Isn't this sword in its scabbard the wrong way round? Does it enter the scabbard both ways? I know nothing of French swords, but this seems unusual...

Well observed ... and possible, judging by the shape of the blade.

[neekee]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Three points:-

Isn't this sword in its scabbard the wrong way round? Does it enter the scabbard both ways? I know nothing of French swords, but this seems unusual.

I have always understood that in 1914 British cavalry had their swords sharpened before embarking for France and officers were instructed to sharpen theirs. It is sometimes quoted, as evidence of the stupidity of the military, that in 1939 officers were again ordered to "sharpen their swords".

I would not discount use of the sword in colonial wars or peacekeeping operations prior to WW2 if you really want the macabre explanation of the "crosses".

Regards
Richard

Thank you for your post Richard. I just tried and the sword can indeed enter the scabbard both ways, without any forcing. I never thought about it to be honest ...

Interesting fact about the sharpening instructions. I will check on the other sabres we got from my great grand father who fought in both wars. They are kept at another relative's place.



Fascinating post Jim. I particularly liked the numeric sequence symbolic part. I am in the process of choosing a design to engrave on the pommel of a medieval sword replica I own and it got me thinking. Oh, the knowledge in this world ~

About the fascination Western Europe once had with dueling, and just to add a bit of my own perspective, it is indeed pretty hard to understand by modern's standards. I am no expert, but think it can be traced back to Knightly ideals, which evolved into this high conception of Honour with a capital H and prevailed as a true gentleman's highest value for centuries in European culture, not dying completely until the 20th century. A man is nothing without honour is something that comes back often in epic tales and stories from these centuries, and while today it may seem silly that a wealthy, educated man in his prime would prefer death in a duel from dishonour, I think it gives great highlight on the mentality of those times, how much they meant what they said (and thus possibly not only on that aspect) and how much our civilization has changed. The symbol of the gentleman warrior, living by a code and protecting his honour with his sword, is also one of the aspects that links European and Japanese cultures, in my opinion.

Cheers ~