French 1882 Sabre

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

.. actually I was hoping to find some reference to marking swords after duels with a cross to signify a victory...

Like the notches they used to cut in their gunstocks in the old West ?
Do you really beleive the crosses in this sword grip mean duel knock downs, Ibrahiim ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Like the notches they used to cut in their gunstocks in the old West ?
Do you really beleive the crosses in this sword grip mean duel knock downs, Ibrahiim ?

Salaams fernando... No actually I do not... but for some reason there are 3 crosses on this hilt and it struck me as a possibility, thus, I have delved into the world of dueling by sword... and found nothing related. Ah well it was worth the excursion y' know? Perhaps it was the number of times the owner fell off his horse?

Jim ~ I agree, yes it became a dwindling concept according to my reference previously which stated that though efforts to rule against Dueling had failed all the way up to about 1921 they still occurred in France .. but only a handful after WW1.. Which is also cited as the reason for the decline in Duels...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[neekee]

Sorry Jim, but what I was referring to about the crosses on a weapon was merely "popular belief". Something kids hear about in books and comics. Nothing seriously historical at all, eventhough in that array "popular rumours" are sometimes good to take into account.

I don't seriously believe the crosses on the sword mean "kills", btw. I would believe it mayyybe a little more if the sword was mid 19th century, with the 1870 war and all that, or even more if it was Napoleon era, but it was made in 1904. I don't see this weapon being wielded in Verdun's trenches ...

Still intriguing ...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by neekee

Sorry Jim, but what I was referring to about the crosses on a weapon was merely "popular belief". Something kids hear about in books and comics. Nothing seriously historical at all, eventhough in that array "popular rumours" are sometimes good to take into account.

I don't seriously believe the crosses on the sword mean "kills", btw. I would believe it mayyybe a little more if the sword was mid 19th century, with the 1870 war and all that, or even more if it was Napoleon era, but it was made in 1904. I don't see this weapon being wielded in Verdun's trenches ...

Still intriguing ...

Thank you Neekee, the reason I asked was that the idea was remarkably intriguing, and as posed by Ibrahiim did seem somewhat plausible. Actually in many instances research can reveal some not only surprising, but sometimes incredible facts.
I have studied these concepts before, occasionally on ethnographic weapon forms, but most interesting on the gunfighters of the 'wild west' as mentioned by Nando. What I found was that there were absolutely no records of any of the well known 'shootists' who ever notched or in any way tallied their opponents or victims. In actuality, it was the writers and sensationalists in embellished tales with overblown hubris who created these myths . In most cases it cannot even be noted with any certainty exactly how many 'kills' or contests these individuals were ever involved in.

Returning to the dueling phenomenon, I have been looking further into this and can see how such popular lore might have developed, much in the way of our gunfighter myths.

As I earlier mentioned, in France Army issue swords being fixed with screw threads to accept a small plate near the tip is noted as having begun during the Napoleonic era when duels took place both with or without these 'gadgets'. But by the Third Republic its use had become "standard".
("Duelling: Cult of Honor in Fin de Siecle Germany", Kevin McAleer, 994, p.194).
The author notes further that by the reign of Napoleon III, hardly a regiment in the garrison of Paris was without its professed duelist, officer or private.
By the 1880s, the military control of dueling gave way to increasing civilian duels. Apparantly the use of swords was far less 'mortal' and much of the circumstance was theatrical in sense and focused on style and popular fascination. Duels were typically covered by newspaper columnists etc. and often critiqued like sporting events. (discussed op.cit, p. 195, McAleer)

The allure of this much romanticized (despite often gruesome) pursuit has remained in place even into modern times, in Germany in universities etc.and I had the pleasure of fascinating communications with Chris Amberger as previously mentioned, who engaged in seven of these 'mensur' duels. A passionate swordsman as well as historian, it seems even he was unclear why he would be drawn into such a threatening circumstance, but when it comes to passions, how does one explain?

I think it is best summed up in one of my favorite movies, "The Duellists" (Keith Carradine, Harvey Keitel). It boldly states on the marquis, "Fencing is a science, love is a passion...dueling is an obsession. The movie is based on a true story by Joseph Conrad about two French officers in Napoleonic times who fought many duels against each other over a long period of time.

While the idea of the crosses on the grip at the outset, sounded of course fanciful and lent toward those popular folklores, I think this additional perspective might add more to the plausibility of the suggestion Ibrahiim posed, and admittedly a bit wistfully wished to be true.

It is important to note as well, the numeric sequence of three seems a bit too coincidental to be considered as a 'tally' due to the use of this number in various applications in markings and symbols in either religious or talismanic imbuements. Also, the 'crosses' are actually 'x's rather than the Latin, potent or other religious forms (acknowledging of course the exception of St. Andrews, seldom used in such contexts described). The use of triple crosses is known to be significant as representing atonement and often seen in numeric three are three holes at blade tip on heading swords. These are simply notes considered in examining this conundrum.

[Raymond]

Hi Neekee, I do not speak/write French but did have the pleasure of serving in that lovely country 1964-66.

I developed an interest in French weaponry.

Here is my unexpert opinion: Mfr desAarmes Chaterault means Chaterault Arms Manufacture (a French Government arsenal.

Fev 1904 indicates the month and year of manufacture.

Mdle 1889 is, of course, Model 1889 (adoption year).

My old eyes won't allow me to see much more of the markings (especially the spelling!).

Probably( without googling) the official Infantry Sword thru the WWI era.

I like it!!

Regards,

Ray

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the kind words Neekee. Indeed it is often difficult for many in todays perspective to fully comprehend the ideals and codes of these fascinating historical times, which is exactly what makes the study of these arms so compelling.
A wonderful sword, and all the more so that it is part of your own family history!

[fernando]

Naturaly all of us would love to have a weapon (or two) with an history behind ... one with a dueling background would be an added value.
I know a collector who, during his gathering struggle, has gone into extreme situations, like swapping hundreds (hundreds) of regular muskets for a most wanted rare example; and having bought an entire collection of gun locks for the acquiring of a single one. I am not kidding; a member of this forum knows to whom such collection was purchased.
A 'modern' chromed sword having a three kill mark in its grip would easily stand in front of the line; and the owner having had his name in the hall of fame .
The three crosses could have been made for whatever reason; from being the user's mark to distinguish it from others at the depot to being a later owner (youngster ?) wishing to give it the "kill look".