An Oddball Moro Knife/Golok

CharlesS · 2nd July 2013, 06:51 PM

Just when you think you've seen it all with Moro stuff...set yourself up for a surprise.

Here is a Moro knife/chopper/golok in a form I have never encountered before. It is 22in. overall with a heavy, clever-like blade of typical Moro patter welded steel, measuring 14in. Note the unique chiseling at the ricasso and toward the down turned tip.

I have no idea what this one is called or if it shows up on the OLD Moro weapons boards.

The weight and balance of the thing does not make it perfect for a weapon, though certainly it could be pressed into service as one, no less than a kitchen clever could....and that's what it really feels more like, that is, a tool, or clever.

The scabbard is new. Philip Tom and I tried to develop something ethnically and aesthetically correct, though we had absolutely nothing to go on for a piece of this type.

Comments are welcomed.

Ferguson · 2nd July 2013, 07:28 PM

Lovely knife, and great work on the scabbard.

Steve

Sajen · 2nd July 2013, 07:33 PM

Hello Charles,

nice and interesting item, love the pattern of the blade. Very good job by the scabbard, it look like original.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 3rd July 2013, 03:18 AM

I think I have seen this ups of knife before somewhere in the past. What I saw would have been Moro, though without the same quality of hilt.

kai · 3rd July 2013, 08:30 AM

Hello Charles,

Congrats for grabbing this neat blade from the Higgins - did you try to inquire with them for the original collection notes? (In the auction, provenance was given for all other blades of the lot but this one...)

Granting a fair bit of artistic license, the attached pic may show the same blade type with a different hilt (old miniatures from Carlos' collection; no names given).

Regards,
Kai

CharlesS · 3rd July 2013, 12:35 PM

Hi Kai.

Thanks for the pic. I think the blade type is spot on, but it appears the board has sword types from all over and not necessarily Moro...is that correct? That makes me wonder what this miniature was being copied from.

Battara · 3rd July 2013, 06:40 PM

Another possibility is that it could be a traded blade......

VANDOO · 3rd July 2013, 08:43 PM

THE HANDLE AND FERRULE APPEAR PURE MORO BUT THE BLADE IS MORE LIKE WHAT YOU WOULD SEE IN BORNEO AND MALAYSIA REGIONS. THE FANCY CUT OUT WORK AT THE TIP AND BELLY OF THE BLADE AND THE SCABBARD MAKE ME THINK SO. THE BAGOBO AND TIBOLI SOMETIMES DO THE CUT OUT FILE WORK ON THE BLADE TIP BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN IT DONE ON THE BELLY OF THE BLADE BEFORE. A NICE LOOKING KNIFE HOWEVER IT CAME TOGETHER. THE MORO TRAVELED WIDELY SO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

Robert · 5th July 2013, 06:00 AM

Hello CharleS, The blade on your example "minus the fancy file-work" looked very similar to the blade on this Visayan piece I have, but now that I have them together there seems to be a difference in the angle of the hilt also.

Best,
Robert

VVV · 5th July 2013, 10:52 AM

Interesting combination.
I vote for a trade blade, too.
It's really strange that it has a Junggayan Barong hilt???

Michael

Battara · 6th July 2013, 05:32 AM

Michael you have a good point, so I wonder if it was purchased by a datu. It might appear unique and exotic to a Moro, or perhaps a gift?

Pure speculation of course.

VVV · 6th July 2013, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Michael you have a good point, so I wonder if it was purchased by a datu. It might appear unique and exotic to a Moro, or perhaps a gift?

Pure speculation of course.

Maybe. That would explain the odd hilt.

Michael

CharlesS · 6th July 2013, 12:40 PM

Of course it could be a trade blade, but it looks and feels like the Moro steel found on bangkungs and barongs(but these can, of course have trade blades too). The only other area in the Philippines that I am aware of that would made anything similar in weight and thickness would be Visayan, but I believe the Visayan example shown really illustrates as many differences as similarities to Moro blades.

Bangkaya · 13th July 2013, 02:18 AM

I'm surprised no one here has seen an utak janap....

....now you have

Regards,
Bangkaya

Battara · 13th July 2013, 04:56 AM

Thanks Bangkaya. I have seen newer janaps, but they did not look like this.

So this is an utak janap.........these aren't common are they?

VVV · 13th July 2013, 11:02 AM

Thanks Bangkaya,

I have an old but "regular" Janap, but its blade look quite different from Charles'.
What are the main variations of the Janap?

Michael

CharlesS · 13th July 2013, 02:10 PM

Can we see pics of some of these other janaps mentioned for comparison?

Sajen · 13th July 2013, 03:38 PM

I think in this thread are shown some examples but they look different to my eyes: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=janap

CharlesS · 13th July 2013, 04:45 PM

I am seeing a lot of similarities in design with these other blades mentioned in comparison to mine, but there seems to always be two comparative differences as well...1.) The other blades seem to curve upward or, in the Visayan case, modestly downward. 2.) None of the blades mentioned really matches the elongated chiseled ricasso, though they may be similar.

The Moro blade I have pictured is practically straight across the top, including the ricasso.

I have noted recently that Moro piras may also have that elongated ricasso.

2nd July 2013, 06:51 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	An Oddball Moro Knife/Golok Just when you think you've seen it all with Moro stuff...set yourself up for a surprise. Here is a Moro knife/chopper/golok in a form I have never encountered before. It is 22in. overall with a heavy, clever-like blade of typical Moro patter welded steel, measuring 14in. Note the unique chiseling at the ricasso and toward the down turned tip. I have no idea what this one is called or if it shows up on the OLD Moro weapons boards. The weight and balance of the thing does not make it perfect for a weapon, though certainly it could be pressed into service as one, no less than a kitchen clever could....and that's what it really feels more like, that is, a tool, or clever. The scabbard is new. Philip Tom and I tried to develop something ethnically and aesthetically correct, though we had absolutely nothing to go on for a piece of this type. Comments are welcomed. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 2nd July 2013 at 07:15 PM.

3rd July 2013, 08:30 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Charles, Congrats for grabbing this neat blade from the Higgins - did you try to inquire with them for the original collection notes? (In the auction, provenance was given for all other blades of the lot but this one...) Granting a fair bit of artistic license, the attached pic may show the same blade type with a different hilt (old miniatures from Carlos' collection; no names given). Regards, Kai Attached Images

3rd July 2013, 12:35 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Hi Kai. Thanks for the pic. I think the blade type is spot on, but it appears the board has sword types from all over and not necessarily Moro...is that correct? That makes me wonder what this miniature was being copied from. Last edited by CharlesS; 3rd July 2013 at 02:21 PM.

5th July 2013, 06:00 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello CharleS, The blade on your example "minus the fancy file-work" looked very similar to the blade on this Visayan piece I have, but now that I have them together there seems to be a difference in the angle of the hilt also. Best, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 5th July 2013 at 06:24 AM.

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2nd July 2013, 07:28 PM	#2
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Lovely knife, and great work on the scabbard. Steve

2nd July 2013, 07:33 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Hello Charles, nice and interesting item, love the pattern of the blade. Very good job by the scabbard, it look like original. Regards, Detlef

3rd July 2013, 03:18 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I think I have seen this ups of knife before somewhere in the past. What I saw would have been Moro, though without the same quality of hilt.

3rd July 2013, 06:40 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Another possibility is that it could be a traded blade......

3rd July 2013, 08:43 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE HANDLE AND FERRULE APPEAR PURE MORO BUT THE BLADE IS MORE LIKE WHAT YOU WOULD SEE IN BORNEO AND MALAYSIA REGIONS. THE FANCY CUT OUT WORK AT THE TIP AND BELLY OF THE BLADE AND THE SCABBARD MAKE ME THINK SO. THE BAGOBO AND TIBOLI SOMETIMES DO THE CUT OUT FILE WORK ON THE BLADE TIP BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN IT DONE ON THE BELLY OF THE BLADE BEFORE. A NICE LOOKING KNIFE HOWEVER IT CAME TOGETHER. THE MORO TRAVELED WIDELY SO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

5th July 2013, 10:52 AM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting combination. I vote for a trade blade, too. It's really strange that it has a Junggayan Barong hilt??? Michael

6th July 2013, 05:32 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Michael you have a good point, so I wonder if it was purchased by a datu. It might appear unique and exotic to a Moro, or perhaps a gift? Pure speculation of course.

6th July 2013, 12:40 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Of course it could be a trade blade, but it looks and feels like the Moro steel found on bangkungs and barongs(but these can, of course have trade blades too). The only other area in the Philippines that I am aware of that would made anything similar in weight and thickness would be Visayan, but I believe the Visayan example shown really illustrates as many differences as similarities to Moro blades.

13th July 2013, 02:18 AM	#14
Bangkaya Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 38	I'm surprised no one here has seen an utak janap.... ....now you have Regards, Bangkaya

13th July 2013, 04:56 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thanks Bangkaya. I have seen newer janaps, but they did not look like this. So this is an utak janap.........these aren't common are they?

13th July 2013, 11:02 AM	#16
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Bangkaya, I have an old but "regular" Janap, but its blade look quite different from Charles'. What are the main variations of the Janap? Michael

13th July 2013, 02:10 PM	#17
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Can we see pics of some of these other janaps mentioned for comparison?

13th July 2013, 03:38 PM	#18
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	I think in this thread are shown some examples but they look different to my eyes: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=janap

13th July 2013, 04:45 PM	#19
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I am seeing a lot of similarities in design with these other blades mentioned in comparison to mine, but there seems to always be two comparative differences as well...1.) The other blades seem to curve upward or, in the Visayan case, modestly downward. 2.) None of the blades mentioned really matches the elongated chiseled ricasso, though they may be similar. The Moro blade I have pictured is practically straight across the top, including the ricasso. I have noted recently that Moro piras may also have that elongated ricasso.