black sea yataghan

Miyamoto · 18th October 2005, 12:22 PM

WOOW!

I went out fishing a couple of days and look here what an interesting debate we have!

Thank you guys for sharing information!

Geographikal origin: I think, after reading all that opinions and after seeing all that evidences that it has to be Ottoman Black Sea region, intended for ship boarding.

Power: I'm a kendo and iaido student and I own a black sea yathagan, so I can tell you from the first hand. It is really terrbile to handle, just believe Ariel and me. Not balanced, difficult to draw from scabbard, difficult to yudge the distance, ecc. Give me a katana (or even a Wakizashi) and I'll be able to kill almost instantly the bastard who'd be so stupidly brave to challenge me. Metaforically speaking, I intend.

ORIGINS: It is really unapropried for combat either from horse or ground. I think that it originated from classic yatagan, wich from my point of view is verry unapropriate for close combat in small crowded areas like a ship would be with all that balustrades, railings, cords, masts ecc. They just added a curvature to enhance the rebounding, recoiling action of the weapon against various obsatcles. Just think of a combat in a small corridor... With an ordinary yathagan will stick to the wall and the warrior instantly killed. For fighting in areas full of obstacles a weapon has to have different point compatred to a classic yataghan, so the warrior could make stabbing actions also. Just think for a moment that you are in a middle of combat on sea and tha you have to cut a rope avoidng to hit the mast? With all other longlike weapons would be nearly impossible. All the facts supports the piracy proposal of that weapon. Another fact supporting that teory is that it is a verry rare weapon. Limited usage - limited production. Kinjals I think were to heavy and also the combat style, wich take a lot of space were inapropriate for ship boarding. The shashka being a cavalry rather long sword was also unapropriate.

Another thing: Some of them really could be north african origin. Look, being used by sailors, and beeing so apropriate for naval boardings it makes a perfect weapon for such purpose, wich was maybe copied in shape by local smiths in the ports around the whole meditteranean area. The knopesh (a verry different usage, more like a sickle) and especially the flissa (what it has rally in common???) have really nothing to do with it.

About pommel: The two horned pommel has obviously a purpose. I think that it derives from classic yataghan pommel. Thoose tho horns, from my point of view, is also an extreme close cobat solution for attacking the eyes of an enemy wich has came too close for slashing or stabbing him.

So we have here, what i think, a perfect boarding weapon in all of its aspects. (wich is obviously extremly unapropriate for all other kinds of usage)

Regarding my previous topic: I'd really wanto to buy another one with or without the scabbard. Ariel?

Miyamoto · 20th October 2005, 12:19 PM

Well, that's only my deductions, any comments?

ariel · 27th October 2005, 01:21 AM

The blade geographically closest to Laz Bicagi is Surmene knife (town of Surmene close to Trabzon).
There were two interesting offerings on ebay recently.
First, this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Please notice swelling of the middle section of the scabbard: just the same idea as Laz Bicagi in the original post

Second, a couple of knives with typical multifullered Surmene blades. The single scabbard is rather neat: just like some Chinese weapons or a pair of Persian swords in Topkapi.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Jeff D · 14th August 2006, 06:47 PM

Hi All,

I brought up this old thread because I might have some new data. I recently bought this lovely Black Sea yataghan from a fellow forumite. It has a Gregorian date of 1888 on it as well as a Islamic date. 1888 converts to the Hijri date of 1305 or 1306. As can be seen the 1 and the 0 are typical Arabic numbers but the 3 and the 5/6 appear unusual. Is this a local variation that might help place its origin?

All the Best
Jeff

Zifir · 14th August 2006, 11:09 PM

Hi,

The arabic date seems to me as 1303 which can be correctly converted as 1885-1886.

However, from 1840 onwards the Ottomans started to use a second calendar which was called the Rumi calendar. The basic aim was to use a calendar which was compatible with the European calendar. Anyway, if your date is a Rumi date, then its Gregorian equivalent is 1887-1888.

best,

Jeff D · 15th August 2006, 12:34 AM

Thank you Zfir !!!

I know the Ottomans switched to a Julian (Solar) Moslem calender in the early part of the 19th century (to try to correlate with the Julian Gregorian European calendar) but I had no idea what it was called or if it was close to the Hijri (lunar) calandar.

The number 3 is unusal here, is this script used in any particular portion of the Ottoman empire?

Thank you again
Jeff

Zifir · 15th August 2006, 02:43 PM

The unusual style of the number '3' in the date may have something to do with workmanship. Because, the same is true for the Gregorian date 1888 on the sword. Very weird 8's indeed

I think the same think is valid for the numbers in the Hijri date.

14th August 2006, 06:47 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, I brought up this old thread because I might have some new data. I recently bought this lovely Black Sea yataghan from a fellow forumite. It has a Gregorian date of 1888 on it as well as a Islamic date. 1888 converts to the Hijri date of 1305 or 1306. As can be seen the 1 and the 0 are typical Arabic numbers but the 3 and the 5/6 appear unusual. Is this a local variation that might help place its origin? All the Best Jeff Attached Images

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18th October 2005, 12:22 PM	#1
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	WOOW! I went out fishing a couple of days and look here what an interesting debate we have! Thank you guys for sharing information! Geographikal origin: I think, after reading all that opinions and after seeing all that evidences that it has to be Ottoman Black Sea region, intended for ship boarding. Power: I'm a kendo and iaido student and I own a black sea yathagan, so I can tell you from the first hand. It is really terrbile to handle, just believe Ariel and me. Not balanced, difficult to draw from scabbard, difficult to yudge the distance, ecc. Give me a katana (or even a Wakizashi) and I'll be able to kill almost instantly the bastard who'd be so stupidly brave to challenge me. Metaforically speaking, I intend. ORIGINS: It is really unapropried for combat either from horse or ground. I think that it originated from classic yatagan, wich from my point of view is verry unapropriate for close combat in small crowded areas like a ship would be with all that balustrades, railings, cords, masts ecc. They just added a curvature to enhance the rebounding, recoiling action of the weapon against various obsatcles. Just think of a combat in a small corridor... With an ordinary yathagan will stick to the wall and the warrior instantly killed. For fighting in areas full of obstacles a weapon has to have different point compatred to a classic yataghan, so the warrior could make stabbing actions also. Just think for a moment that you are in a middle of combat on sea and tha you have to cut a rope avoidng to hit the mast? With all other longlike weapons would be nearly impossible. All the facts supports the piracy proposal of that weapon. Another fact supporting that teory is that it is a verry rare weapon. Limited usage - limited production. Kinjals I think were to heavy and also the combat style, wich take a lot of space were inapropriate for ship boarding. The shashka being a cavalry rather long sword was also unapropriate. Another thing: Some of them really could be north african origin. Look, being used by sailors, and beeing so apropriate for naval boardings it makes a perfect weapon for such purpose, wich was maybe copied in shape by local smiths in the ports around the whole meditteranean area. The knopesh (a verry different usage, more like a sickle) and especially the flissa (what it has rally in common???) have really nothing to do with it. About pommel: The two horned pommel has obviously a purpose. I think that it derives from classic yataghan pommel. Thoose tho horns, from my point of view, is also an extreme close cobat solution for attacking the eyes of an enemy wich has came too close for slashing or stabbing him. So we have here, what i think, a perfect boarding weapon in all of its aspects. (wich is obviously extremly unapropriate for all other kinds of usage) Regarding my previous topic: I'd really wanto to buy another one with or without the scabbard. Ariel?

20th October 2005, 12:19 PM	#2
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Well, that's only my deductions, any comments?

27th October 2005, 01:21 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade geographically closest to Laz Bicagi is Surmene knife (town of Surmene close to Trabzon). There were two interesting offerings on ebay recently. First, this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Please notice swelling of the middle section of the scabbard: just the same idea as Laz Bicagi in the original post Second, a couple of knives with typical multifullered Surmene blades. The single scabbard is rather neat: just like some Chinese weapons or a pair of Persian swords in Topkapi. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

14th August 2006, 11:09 PM	#5
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Hi, The arabic date seems to me as 1303 which can be correctly converted as 1885-1886. However, from 1840 onwards the Ottomans started to use a second calendar which was called the Rumi calendar. The basic aim was to use a calendar which was compatible with the European calendar. Anyway, if your date is a Rumi date, then its Gregorian equivalent is 1887-1888. best,

15th August 2006, 12:34 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thank you Zfir !!! I know the Ottomans switched to a Julian (Solar) Moslem calender in the early part of the 19th century (to try to correlate with the Julian Gregorian European calendar) but I had no idea what it was called or if it was close to the Hijri (lunar) calandar. The number 3 is unusal here, is this script used in any particular portion of the Ottoman empire? Thank you again Jeff

15th August 2006, 02:43 PM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	The unusual style of the number '3' in the date may have something to do with workmanship. Because, the same is true for the Gregorian date 1888 on the sword. Very weird 8's indeed I think the same think is valid for the numbers in the Hijri date.