Early signs of dhamentia

[Tim Simmons]

While enjoying a brewed elixir, I was rather stupidly perusing ebay and ended up with this. This sort of behaviour is out of character, the ebay part is anyway. It does have some damage but not unexceptable for the money or too my surprise its age. The tip is fine and purposely fashioned. It handles beautifully what practitioners would call a fast weapon. I like the ivory grip but I do not really know a lot about it. Can I join the dhamented, please Tim

[Tim Simmons]

Marks I have just found, has anybody seen the same ones?

[Lew]

Hi Tim

That is a rather nice dha you picked up It shows very nice workmanship on the hilt and the blade is old. I can't quite place what tribe it came from. The point throws me a bit? Mark this is one for you to figure out. I leave this up to the experts.


Lew

[Henk]

Hi Tim,

I think I will get drunk too tonight

That brewed elixer gave you a sharp view on the pleasures of live

[Andrew]

Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations!

I've never seen that blade marking before, so I can't help you there. As for the origin, I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research.

Age is a tough one, particularly from photos. This thing looks pretty old, but in nice condition. I'd say late 19th/early 20th century. It may be older.

The blade is nice, and that broad central fuller is not rare on Thai swords. The blade tip is interesting, and it looks like the fuller extends all the way to the end? Any chance you could post a close-up of that feature?

Best,
Andrew

[Tim Simmons]

I hope these help. The seller said it was from Malay. The pictures show where the sword ends inside the scabbard, just short of the peg in the scabbard, pegs have been discussed before. Thanks for the help, I was very worried I had bought a pig and a poke while waiting for it to arrive. Tim

[Andrew]

Curiouser and curiouser.

Other than claiming a Malay origin, did the seller provide any provenance? I'm unaware of any sword of this form originating from a Malay culture, but it's possible this traveled down through the peninsula on its way to you.

I think this blade has been shortened, but I'm far from certain. I've got a few dha with squared or convex tips that have a wide fuller extending through the tip. However, your scabbard is a bit long for the blade, and I think I detect a slight upcurve to the bottom edge of the fuller which might have indicated the beginning of fuller "resolution" if the blade were originally longer.

I think Mark may have a sword with a very similar blade.

The peg might have been placed to repair the scabbard (do I see a crack in the wood?). I've never seen a dha of this length and a chape cap with such a peg. When I have seen them, they usually appear on knife-sized weapons, or occasionally on newer, lower quality swords. This is not one of those.

[Tim Simmons]

I have a knife sized dha with a peg in the scabbard. I can see no obvious signs of alteration, the other side of the scabbard is fine. There are no file marks and a uniform patina on the blade tip, the balance of the weapon could not be better. What was Malay does border Siam. The blade on this is quite thin and tempered so as to have some flexability and much finer than my latter dha. Tim

[Andrew]

Fair enough, Tim. As I said, I'm far from certain this blade has been shortened, and you have the advantage of having it in your hand. This tip form is uncommon, but not unknown.

I, too, favor the balance of these long-handled swords. It makes for a very "quick" feeling blade, as that much handle will usually move the center of balance back very close to the handle/blade junction.

[RhysMichael]

I have to join with the others in saying what a great find that is. I have seen similar hilts but never have seen that tip style or makers mark either. Its a shame Dan is not still in Thailand to find out about the mark. I have seen several dha now with the longer handles with a more dramatic curve. Andrew is the evidence now that this is mostly Laotian ?

The only one I own that is similar is this one





Again congratulations on the find and beware dha are addictive. I am sure the surgeon general will soon require warning labels on them.

[Andrew]

Hi JT. I still favor Thai for Tim's example. Probably Ratankosin, according to Mark. A similar one appears as #4 in the second photo in this post about an Oldman Catalog:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...97&postcount=2

[Mark]

How did I miss this one? It is very nice, from what I can see.

I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away ).



I have seen the peg in a number of scabbards, so I think that it is a normal feature, but I don't think that I have seen it together with a chape. I think Andrew is right about age. Never seen the mark, either. It looks sort of like a flower with a stem ... or maybe a latanka? Are there two marks or one?

[Tim Simmons]

I take it I am in then, you will let me know the password or secret knock . This is a drawing of the mark but it might not be a good strike, looking from the handle at the bottom of the drawing using a +10 loop. I do not know if it helps. I thank you all for the reassuring comments as although not a complete stab in the dark I was a little concerned that I had spent a touch more than usual. Tim

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away ).

Hi Mark.

Notice I hedged my bets on the pommel?

Have we seen many Burman swords with handles of this length? I know this is not a "cast in stone" feature, but lotus-bud pommels do appear on Thai swords as well, and if the handle was shorter and three-sectioned like your example, you'd have complete agreement from me. Perhaps an example of cross-polination?

The struck marks at the forte are interesting. I suspect a smith's mark (no great guess).

Andrew

[Tim Simmons]

This is like one of those difficult viewings of Congo artifacts, where differences are detectable but who exactly, when in areas with cultural similarities has the dominant influence, especially when you consider what was Burma, Malay and Siam all share borders on the peninsula. Might one have to look at even smaller group affiliation such as clans which can be surprisingly dispersed? When I think about it there is less written about this area of weapons than Africa. Tim

[Mark]

I don't think I have seem such a long handle on a Burmese sword. Some funky Shan dha approach these proportions, but they have shorter blades, so the handle wouldn't be so long in absolute terms.

Its very possibly cross-pollination. You know how this stuff moves around! Nothing ever seems to be an absolute identifier. Except I have convinced myself that koftgari on the blade is uniquely Burmese, at least on the older blades (I understand from Dan that someone up in northern Thailand seems to do it nowadays, since he sent his custom dha up there for decoration).

Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

I have seen and handled some of the concave tip dha with the fuller going through the tip also. Most of you have seen these already.

[Mark]

Yeah, that is exactly the type I meant. The handles are a lot shorter, though, actually.

[Andrew]

I'm willing to reconsider the possibility that Tim's sword is Laotian. The hatchet tip reminds me of a more subtle version of those seen on Montagnard swords, and the long handle is often seen on Laos swords.

I'm short on time, but I'll try to post some examples later.

[Tim Simmons]

I may be going off on a tangent but if you put aside the detail and decoration and focus on just form, the proportions shown here are a very good match. The knife at the top has the peg scabbard but the middle dha obviously the large version, has a scabbard bound with fine cord without a peg unless there is a peg under the binding. Viewed this way although chalk and cheese in terms of finery there are similarities. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

I have just seen another dha with a peg and chape scabbard, I will not be able to show the pictures for a couple of hours. Tim

[Andrew]

Hi Tim,

I'm not inclined to place too much significance on the peg at this time. Those other weapons you show are of recent manufacture, and typical of the type. Your ivory-handled sword is much older, and much finer. It is, frankly, a special sword.

I'm certainly not suggesting the peg has no significance at all, but it fades into the background for me at this point when considering the other characteristics.

Andrew

[Tim Simmons]

Gosh thank you, the devil looks after his own , I will not bother with the other picturs as it to is rather modern. Thanks again. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies . The Shan, Yao, and Hmong all have groups in Burma, Loas and Thai borders, the Golden Triangle, so I think trying to be sure of the swords origin is really quite tricky. I must say I rather like the idea of saying "Golden Triangle" Tim

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies . The Shan, Yao, and Hmong all have groups in Burma, Loas and Thai borders, the Golden Triangle, so I think trying to be sure of the swords origin is really quite tricky. I must say I rather like the idea of saying "Golden Triangle" Tim

That is but the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of "Kachin" tribes (Kachin is actually a Burmese word), Karen, Chin, Arrakanese, Mon, etc., etc. Burma is a very heterogenous country, ethnically speaking. The nosology of the dha is indeed very tricky.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies . The Shan, Yao, and Hmong all have groups in Burma, Loas and Thai borders, the Golden Triangle, so I think trying to be sure of the swords origin is really quite tricky. I must say I rather like the idea of saying "Golden Triangle" Tim

Diran's book is a nice source, but unfortunately lacks the depth we're all looking for. Don't feel discouraged, Tim. Mark, Ian and I have been struggling with these issues for years now, and our research has frequently turned up information that changes our way of thinking. For instance, if you do a search of the old forum, you'll find an old thread where we tried to categorize dha forms along tribal lines. This very rough typology has broken down over the years, and while some elements remain helpful, we're moving in other directions presently. Information obtained from Dan Wilke (Wilked) while he was stationed in Thailand was invaluable in this regard.

Stay tuned.

[Mark]

I forgot the add the icing on the cake -- according to Leach, "Political Systems of Highland Burma," Kachin and Shan tribes inhabit the same regions (Kachin up in the mountains, and Shan down in the upland river valleys), and individuals can become sort of indentured to members of the other tribe and end up adopting the identy of that tribe. So an ethnic Kachin will call himself "Shan" if he/she is indentured to a Shan and living among the Shan, and vice versa! Plus, frequently a sword may be made by one tribe, and used by the other, or the blade made by one tribe and the fittings by another. Bewildering ...

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

That is but the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of "Kachin" tribes (Kachin is actually a Burmese word), Karen, Chin, Arrakanese, Mon, etc., etc. Burma is a very heterogenous country, ethnically speaking. The nosology of the dha is indeed very tricky.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you fellows, not too scholarly in English English means coffee table book I used to think Africa was the forgotten area and still is in some ways but when it comes to Asia, the areas of the dha still seem to be in darkness. I shall follow your updated info. Can you recommend any catalogue type books on the dha? Tim

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you fellows, not too scholarly in English English means coffee table book I used to think Africa was the forgotten area and still is in some ways but when it comes to Asia, the areas of the dha still seem to be in darkness. I shall follow your updated info. Can you recommend any catalogue type books on the dha? Tim

lol. It does have many nice pictures.

What do you mean by "catalogue type books"? There's a bibliography thread around here somewhere that I've been meaning to update and make a "Sticky" for some time. However, the references for dha are sparse, and we tend to get excited about a single photo or passing reference in much larger works.

Incidentally. this dearth of information is exactly what fomented my obsession with dha.

[Mark]

the best single source for dha pictures that I know of in general publication is Punjabhan, Naengnoi, "Silverware in Thailand," ISBN 9748869563. There are some pictures from it on this thread, courtesy of dha investigator extraordinaire Dan Wilke.

And not to beat my own drum, but the largest single collection of dha photos on the web is on my web site The Dha Research Index (I thinK I have more than are in Artzi's archives at Oriental-Arms).