East Javanese Keris(es) - Discussion

Bjorn · 24th February 2013, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Looks like we're going to get Madura whether we want it or not. Inevitable I suppose, and I guess we'll get other keris posted that will be queried as East Jawa or not. Probably not a bad thing, because it shows what is not East Jawa.

I couldn't agree more. I hope this thread will contribute to increasing people's understanding of East Jawa keris, and a process of elimination can be a useful tool for discussion and learning.

Now that several photos have been placed, I am wondering about pendok on East Jawa blades. Is there anything that sets them apart from pendok in other parts of Jawa? Are specific types (e.g. blewah) used more than others, or conversely, rarely used?

And what about wood types? Are there any special preferences or are these the same as in central Jawa (e.g. pelet being highly appreciated; an angle of 45 degrees for the grain in the wrongko).

For the wrongko, most of us know that these look relatively bloated and lack the elegance of wrongkos from Solo and Jogya. What I find noticeable is that all the East Jawa gayaman seem to follow the Solo style, i.e. with the little upticked, pointy wave at the right-hand top of the wrongko. Are there also East Jawa gayaman that adopt the Jogya style?

And what about ladrang forms. I don't have any Jogya ladrang myself so I still find it difficult to identify these. Are the ladrang forms in the photos above in Jogya style? Do they also appear less elegant in comparison to those of Jogya?

Jean · 24th February 2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuuzan

And what about ladrang forms. I don't have any Jogya ladrang myself so I still find it difficult to identify these. Are the ladrang forms in the photos above in Jogya style? Do they also appear less elegant in comparison to those of Jogya?

Hello Yuuzan,
The ladrang sheaths from Yogya are called branggah, I attach a typical example. They are finer and more elegant than those from East Java.
I have tried to show representative specimens of the 3 main types of East Java sheaths (gayaman, ladrang, and sandang walikat).
Regards

Sajen · 24th February 2013, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuuzan

And what about ladrang forms. I don't have any Jogya ladrang myself so I still find it difficult to identify these. Are the ladrang forms in the photos above in Jogya style? Do they also appear less elegant in comparison to those of Jogya?

Jeans second and my third examples are ladrang sheaths typical for East Java but for Madura as well. The style is very similar to the Jogya branggah sheaths like Jean has shown.

Regards,

Detlef

Bjorn · 24th February 2013, 09:42 PM

Sajen, Jean,

Thank you for your contributions. From what I understand, the situation for the branggah style is analogous to that of the gayaman, i.e. the court styles (Solo, Jogya) are highly developed and elegant while the East Javanese styles are cruder copies of these refines court styles.

What I find interesting now is that it appears that in East Java the common style for gayaman wronkos is modelled on the Solo style while the ceremonial wrongkos (branggah) are derivative of the Jogya style.

Does anyone have any knowledge or theories on why this is? Why don't we see both styles being used (Solo gayaman and ladrang derivatives as well as Jogya gayaman and branggah derivatives)?

And relatedly, why is it that no local designs were developed in East Java? Madura features the East Java-type branggah - and possibly also the East Java-type gayaman - but also developed different styles unique to Madura. Were there less skilled craftsmen in East Java possibly? Was it too much of a backwater (Madura had 1 or 2 courts which would have contributed to finer and more refined wrongkos) without the presence of local courts? Or did people consider Solo and Jogya as paradigms of Javanese culture worthy to be emulated?

A lot of questions, and I hope we can slowly but steadily find some answers!

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2013, 10:00 PM

Well, it looks as if this thread is well and truly flying, however, I do not have time to keep up with it.

At the moment I'm more than a little busy, and in 9 days I fly out to Solo.

The posts that have already been made to this thread could keep me busy for probably half a day.

If I get a little time further down the track I'll float a few of my opinions, but in the meantime, how about if somebody else floats a few opinions, along with the reasons for the opinions?

A. G. Maisey · 25th February 2013, 07:52 AM

As I have already said, I'm very short on time.

Here are some very quick, first impressions along with the usual qualification that if I had it my hand I could well say something different.

Post 8.

pic #1
Stylistically majapahit---long slow luk, boto adeg, thus classifiable as East Jawa, wrongko east Jawa.

#2

Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura.

#3

mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro

Post 9

#1

Jateng, Solo and maybe a Koripan wilahan --- can't be positive without physical insp.

post 10

#1

very tempted to give Jatim, wilah might be Pjjrn.:- pamor, boto adeg, but only stylistically and it might look different in the hand.

post 11

capu kagok---Maduro

wilah very possibly Tuban, but cannot be definite unless handled, stylistcally a bit of a mix, wouldn't surprise if Tuban style but Maduro manuftr. Actually, this is a pretty interesting blade, I'm not sure, but I think I can see a "fallen brick" blumbangan, and this can point towards Pjjrn. but there are other things that do not say Pjjrn. As is often the case I'd really need to handle it.

post 12

need to handle it

Jean · 25th February 2013, 09:08 AM

Hello Yuuzan,
Alan has given very interesting opinions about the posted krisses and it shows how difficult it is to properly identify a kris from continental East Java.
By the way when he refers to Jatim it means Jawa Timur or East Java and he rightly compares the ladrang sheaths from East Java to the (thick) kagog capu style from Solo, see attached picture.
Regards

Bjorn · 25th February 2013, 10:02 AM

Alan, as always, your opinions are greatly appreciated. I look forward to hearing more when you have more time.

Jean, many thanks for that beautiful photo of the capu kagog style (; do you happen to know the literal meaning of these words?). I find this little tidbit of knowledge to be of great value as I had no idea that this style actually originated in Solo. It's lovely to see how this Solo example clearly features an elegant curve on the right part of the wrongko while this feature is largely absent in those from Madura/East Jawa.

It thus seems that I made a completely incorrect inference in one of my earlier posts: the East Jawa-type ladrang being based on the Jogya branggah. In fact, it seems that style is very much based on a Solonese style.

Then it would seem that East Jawa wrongkos are completely modelled on Solo types. This, to me, raises interesting questions as to the diffusion of these styles over time. As Alan has mentioned in other threads, there were ties between the keraton of Solo and Sumenep (Madura); and the capu kagok style was popular on Madura as well (likely as a result of these ties). But how did this style diffuse to East Jawa? Did it come straight from Solo, or did it reach the hinterland of East Jawa via Madurese traders/contacts?

This discussion is definitely providing me with a lot of food for thought!

Sajen · 3rd March 2013, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

post 11

capu kagok---Maduro

wilah very possibly Tuban, but cannot be definite unless handled, stylistcally a bit of a mix, wouldn't surprise if Tuban style but Maduro manuftr. Actually, this is a pretty interesting blade, I'm not sure, but I think I can see a "fallen brick" blumbangan, and this can point towards Pjjrn. but there are other things that do not say Pjjrn. As is often the case I'd really need to handle it.

Thank you very much for comment Alan. Someone else with a very good knowledge has told me before that this is a possible Tuban blade. So the attribution East Jawa seems correct. What do you mean by "fallen brick"? Maybe I can try to take different pictures to show it better.
How do you would call the pamor? Udan mas?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2013, 11:33 PM

Fallen brick is when the blumbangan is wider than it is tall.

Yes, I'd give this pamor as udan mas, but it is possible that the blade is very thin, if this is the case it is most likely a Tuban blade that started life as a wos wutah and was turned into udan mas to make it more saleable.

Tuban was trading port and blades came from all over to sell as trade items both to locals and for export, styles change a bit depending on when made, but because Tuban blades were good beefy blades in their original form, they were also the blade of choice for re-manufacture when that was being done.

100% original Tuban blades are now pretty scarce, and because of this they seem to have been elevated a bit in price, simply because of scarcity.

25th February 2013, 07:52 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,064	further comment. As I have already said, I'm very short on time. Here are some very quick, first impressions along with the usual qualification that if I had it my hand I could well say something different. Post 8. pic #1 Stylistically majapahit---long slow luk, boto adeg, thus classifiable as East Jawa, wrongko east Jawa. #2 Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura. #3 mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro Post 9 #1 Jateng, Solo and maybe a Koripan wilahan --- can't be positive without physical insp. post 10 #1 very tempted to give Jatim, wilah might be Pjjrn.:- pamor, boto adeg, but only stylistically and it might look different in the hand. post 11 capu kagok---Maduro wilah very possibly Tuban, but cannot be definite unless handled, stylistcally a bit of a mix, wouldn't surprise if Tuban style but Maduro manuftr. Actually, this is a pretty interesting blade, I'm not sure, but I think I can see a "fallen brick" blumbangan, and this can point towards Pjjrn. but there are other things that do not say Pjjrn. As is often the case I'd really need to handle it. post 12 need to handle it Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 25th February 2013 at 12:23 PM.

25th February 2013, 09:08 AM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Yuuzan, Alan has given very interesting opinions about the posted krisses and it shows how difficult it is to properly identify a kris from continental East Java. By the way when he refers to Jatim it means Jawa Timur or East Java and he rightly compares the ladrang sheaths from East Java to the (thick) kagog capu style from Solo, see attached picture. Regards Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

24th February 2013, 09:42 PM	#4
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Sajen, Jean, Thank you for your contributions. From what I understand, the situation for the branggah style is analogous to that of the gayaman, i.e. the court styles (Solo, Jogya) are highly developed and elegant while the East Javanese styles are cruder copies of these refines court styles. What I find interesting now is that it appears that in East Java the common style for gayaman wronkos is modelled on the Solo style while the ceremonial wrongkos (branggah) are derivative of the Jogya style. Does anyone have any knowledge or theories on why this is? Why don't we see both styles being used (Solo gayaman and ladrang derivatives as well as Jogya gayaman and branggah derivatives)? And relatedly, why is it that no local designs were developed in East Java? Madura features the East Java-type branggah - and possibly also the East Java-type gayaman - but also developed different styles unique to Madura. Were there less skilled craftsmen in East Java possibly? Was it too much of a backwater (Madura had 1 or 2 courts which would have contributed to finer and more refined wrongkos) without the presence of local courts? Or did people consider Solo and Jogya as paradigms of Javanese culture worthy to be emulated? A lot of questions, and I hope we can slowly but steadily find some answers!

24th February 2013, 10:00 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,064	Well, it looks as if this thread is well and truly flying, however, I do not have time to keep up with it. At the moment I'm more than a little busy, and in 9 days I fly out to Solo. The posts that have already been made to this thread could keep me busy for probably half a day. If I get a little time further down the track I'll float a few of my opinions, but in the meantime, how about if somebody else floats a few opinions, along with the reasons for the opinions?

25th February 2013, 10:02 AM	#8
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Alan, as always, your opinions are greatly appreciated. I look forward to hearing more when you have more time. Jean, many thanks for that beautiful photo of the capu kagog style (; do you happen to know the literal meaning of these words?). I find this little tidbit of knowledge to be of great value as I had no idea that this style actually originated in Solo. It's lovely to see how this Solo example clearly features an elegant curve on the right part of the wrongko while this feature is largely absent in those from Madura/East Jawa. It thus seems that I made a completely incorrect inference in one of my earlier posts: the East Jawa-type ladrang being based on the Jogya branggah. In fact, it seems that style is very much based on a Solonese style. Then it would seem that East Jawa wrongkos are completely modelled on Solo types. This, to me, raises interesting questions as to the diffusion of these styles over time. As Alan has mentioned in other threads, there were ties between the keraton of Solo and Sumenep (Madura); and the capu kagok style was popular on Madura as well (likely as a result of these ties). But how did this style diffuse to East Jawa? Did it come straight from Solo, or did it reach the hinterland of East Jawa via Madurese traders/contacts? This discussion is definitely providing me with a lot of food for thought!

3rd March 2013, 11:33 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,064	Fallen brick is when the blumbangan is wider than it is tall. Yes, I'd give this pamor as udan mas, but it is possible that the blade is very thin, if this is the case it is most likely a Tuban blade that started life as a wos wutah and was turned into udan mas to make it more saleable. Tuban was trading port and blades came from all over to sell as trade items both to locals and for export, styles change a bit depending on when made, but because Tuban blades were good beefy blades in their original form, they were also the blade of choice for re-manufacture when that was being done. 100% original Tuban blades are now pretty scarce, and because of this they seem to have been elevated a bit in price, simply because of scarcity.