The Omani Shamshiir.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Konnichiwa Ibrahiim,

I agree that all the modern straight Kattara probobly do have locally made blades. All the modern ones that I've seen are frankly 'only' fit for dancing with
But I've seen older ones with good double edged blades clearly of the same genre of trade blades exported en-masse from Europe, oft copied locally and seen in such varied incarnations as Kaskara, Mandinko swords, etc, etc...

Hold on, didn't I show you a short tang trade blade of the type commonly seen in Kaskara mounted up as a Kattara?

Anyway, the Shamshir.
What you seem to have above are two 'fairly standard' form Shamshir exported widely and in this incarnation re-dressed with some locally made mounts.
The form hasn't been altered a breath and if it wasn't for the close-up pictures you could easily not even notice that these have had a holiday in Oman.
I'm suprised that you're not going to source some plain or tatty shamshir and have your silverworkers redress them in Omani style?

As to 'who' added the Omani mounts to the originals?
These swords (and related types) were widely admired across half the world. Given the time you could probobly find dozens of retro-fitted and locally embellished Shamshir from as many different countries.
I would assume that these were simply imported of gifted swords given a slightly local flavour to 'Omanicise' them.

As to them being rare?
I would conjecture that many might not have been modified at all or only lightly re-dressed, so would only be distinguishable by knowledge of their actual provenance or possibly just by their scabbard?
Once removed from their direct history or parted from their Omanicised scabbard their 'connection' to Oman is lost.
Which is why the two complete examples that you show are so interesting.
There is no reason why Shamshir might not have been popular among certain wealthier "Omani" in times past and the majority might not have been modified at all.
So like many of our swords, their 'history' is lost over time.

Regards
Gene

Salaams Atlantia I agree indeed ... I could have written exactly that ! There appear to be only a couple of these in the entire museums weapons collections in Muscat... As I say I have only seen one or two "in the wild" and they were very ropey. The finer items may well have been gifted or special commissions..

On the subject of European blades ... older ones ... remounted on Omani longhilts I've seen a lot. Trouble is they all appear to have been joined after about 1970 in Muscat Muttrah Souk for the tourist market. I showed a Solingen blade to that effect on Kattara for comments but it was stuck together only recently. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 . Please see # 228 #250 One shows ropey Shamshiirs and the other recent European remounted blades.

Anyway like a lot of other points to recheck this is high on my list for my Muscat Museum visit program in the next 3 months. Thanks for the post

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia I agree indeed ... I could have written exactly that ! There appear to be only a couple of these in the entire museums weapons collections in Muscat... As I say I have only seen one or two "in the wild" and they were very ropey. The finer items may well have been gifted or special commissions..

On the subject of European blades ... older ones ... remounted on Omani longhilts I've seen a lot. Trouble is they all appear to have been joined after about 1970 in Muscat Muttrah Souk for the tourist market. I showed a Solingen blade to that effect on Kattara for comments but it was stuck together only recently. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 . Please see # 228 #250 One shows ropey Shamshiirs and the other recent European remounted blades.

Anyway like a lot of other points to recheck this is high on my list for my Muscat Museum visit program in the next 3 months. Thanks for the post

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahiim


I've hunted out the original reference to the 'relic' Kattara below and found the owners description:
He says: A friend's father "pulled it out of the thatch of an old house back in the 1960's in Kildare. The sword has remained in his family since then.".

It seems fair to assume that the sword was there for some considerable time to achieve this level of decay but it's age when abandoned is of course subject to debate.
My personal view would be that it was a 19thC Kattara (of Saif as you like to call them) brought back by some Irish soldier in the early part of the 20thC.
I use it as an example simply because it's state of disrepair reveals that imho it is a trade blade of the type often seen in Kaskara etc.
I would also say that it's origins were in Europe and that the multitude of these being exported in the 18th/19thC supported various 'final products' along the trade routes from Africa into the ME.

Funnily enough I know a dealer with one of the wide fullered trade blades mounted up in original configuration as a Victorian 'Medieval broadsword'.

Anyway, you are very welcome and thanks for sharing these interesting re-dressed Shamshir. Far more my cup of tea than kattara!

Regards
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim


I've hunted out the original reference to the 'relic' Kattara below and found the owners description:
He says: A friend's father "pulled it out of the thatch of an old house back in the 1960's in Kildare. The sword has remained in his family since then.".

It seems fair to assume that the sword was there for some considerable time to achieve this level of decay but it's age when abandoned is of course subject to debate.
My personal view would be that it was a 19thC Kattara (of Saif as you like to call them) brought back by some Irish soldier in the early part of the 20thC.
I use it as an example simply because it's state of disrepair reveals that imho it is a trade blade of the type often seen in Kaskara etc.
I would also say that it's origins were in Europe and that the multitude of these being exported in the 18th/19thC supported various 'final products' along the trade routes from Africa into the ME.

Funnily enough I know a dealer with one of the wide fullered trade blades mounted up in original configuration as a Victorian 'Medieval broadsword'.

Anyway, you are very welcome and thanks for sharing these interesting re-dressed Shamshir. Far more my cup of tea than kattara!

Regards
Gene

Salaams Atlantia ~ Yes well... I would hate to do the post mortem on this one ! It could be Portuguese, German, Red Sea or as you say Omani and the pommel is certainly of the latter type. I dont know what conditions it was stored in but it looks like it has had a rough time ..wet, damp conditions over 100 years can be very agressive. The hilt is extended with tang...single broad fuller. The usual method of production for Omani Sayfs was tang and blade as one piece thus this is likely to be a conversion.

The debate is on as to whether there is such a thing as a European Trade blade viz a viz Omani Sayfs.. Omani Straight dancing swords. Please feel free to join this debate on The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ Yes well... I would hate to do the post mortem on this one ! It could be Portuguese, German, Red Sea or as you say Omani and the pommel is certainly of the latter type. I dont know what conditions it was stored in but it looks like it has had a rough time ..wet, damp conditions over 100 years can be very agressive. The hilt is extended with tang...single broad fuller. The usual method of production for Omani Sayfs was tang and blade as one piece thus this is likely to be a conversion.

The debate is on as to whether there is such a thing as a European Trade blade viz a viz Omani Sayfs.. Omani Straight dancing swords. Please feel free to join this debate on The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sup Ibrahiim,

The relic sword is surely an example of a trade blade used in a Kattara?

I wouldn't get too caught up on the Kaskara attribution simply because that's where we see this kind of blade most commonly.
To conclude that this blade started out IN a Kaskara seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
My limited experience of de-hilted Kaskara with a European blade (one that I owned many years ago) is that it also had a short tang with a single hole which appeared to be how it had been supplied from it's source in Europe and not locally cut down.

To illustrate this I add a picture from this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269
Showing a trade blade with a seemingly original short tang the same as the one that I previously owned and the relic example above.
I would suggest that the logical assumption was that these were being traded en-masse to whoever wanted them and that while many ended up as Kaskara, some also ended up as Mandinka swords, Takouba and Kattara.


Unless someone can say with certainty that the trade blades were supplied with conventional long tangs and ONLY shortened 'in theatre' as they were being made into Kaskara?

Regards
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Atlanta... Just to remind you that you are on the Omani Shamshiir thread and better perhaps to be on the Omani Sayf thread...The Straight Omani Sayf; but to continue...well it would take some science to prove thats an Omani blade but ok lets say its an Omani Straight Sayf.

I didnt mention Kaskara?

The blade you add is a trade blade and I put it to forum that no Omani Straight Sayfs originate from those..I have tentatively agreed that there mmay be some inclusion of form taken from the fullers designs but no more. They made their own or got them from somewhere else... India or Yemen possibly?

Kindly consider bringing the question onto the right thread...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlanta... Just to remind you that you are on the Omani Shamshiir thread and better perhaps to be on the Omani Sayf thread...The Straight Omani Sayf; but to continue...well it would take some science to prove thats an Omani blade but ok lets say its an Omani Straight Sayf.

I didnt mention Kaskara?

The blade you add is a trade blade and I put it to forum that no Omani Straight Sayfs originate from those..I have tentatively agreed that there mmay be some inclusion of form taken from the fullers designs but no more. They made their own or got them from somewhere else... India or Yemen possibly?

Kindly consider bringing the question onto the right thread...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Yeah, I don't really want to get into the whole Kattara/Saif, flexi/stiff, dancing/combat debate.
I've got plans for the next year.... or two

With the relic blade above, I thought you suggested in the original thread that it was a reused Kaskara blade, but I have to admit that I did lose the will to live about 6 or 7 pages into that thread so I could easily be misquoting your meaning.
I'm not sure how you're explaining this blade any other way than how I suggest, but if you don't want to continue to discuss it within this 'Omanicised Shamshir' thread then no problem. I don't want to derail this thread and turn it into another debate on Kattara.

So back to Shamshir it is!

Regards
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Yeah, I don't really want to get into the whole Kattara/Saif, flexi/stiff, dancing/combat debate.
I've got plans for the next year.... or two

With the relic blade above, I thought you suggested in the original thread that it was a reused Kaskara blade, but I have to admit that I did lose the will to live about 6 or 7 pages into that thread so I could easily be misquoting your meaning.
I'm not sure how you're explaining this blade any other way than how I suggest, but if you don't want to continue to discuss it within this 'Omanicised Shamshir' thread then no problem. I don't want to derail this thread and turn it into another debate on Kattara.

So back to Shamshir it is!

Regards
Gene

Salaams Atlantia ~ I will discus anything anywhere but as you point out the Kattara for comments was a bit big... thats why I've hived off the different forms (theres only 4)of Omani swords... all very different as you know. That way you can dip into each specific type without going in through "War and Peace" and the 300 posts plus ~ which are all very meaningful and full of important detail...I have to add that because I wrote most of it. Anyway 17,000 hits aint at all bad.
No really! it would enhance that thread to have your comments on it... after all if a research student is looking at Omani Sayfs he wouldn't really find your excellent input here so why not join the debate over on Omani Sayfs ?

Here it is...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

(snip)
The debate is on as to whether there is such a thing as a European Trade blade viz a viz Omani Sayfs.. Omani Straight dancing swords. Please feel free to join this debate on The Omani Sayf. (snip)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

P.S.
I've not really got anything else to add Ibrahiim
Kattara aren't really my bag (at all) and Iain is certainly the chap to talk Takouba, Kaskara and trade blades of this type as well I would imagine!