Moro Kris Silver Dots and Inlay

Battara · 9th February 2013, 08:28 PM

Greetings folks!

Here is a Moro kris from Christies that went for over $9000!

Ivory with silver dots in the junggayan pommel and hllt, along with silver inlay along the blade:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...4-details.aspx

David · 9th February 2013, 08:38 PM

Well, nice kris, no doubt, but more than $9600! And it doesn't even have a sheath (not that it would make that much difference). Some people have waaaay too much money to throw around.

Rick · 9th February 2013, 08:41 PM

This auction description begs the question: is "bone" the new designation for Ivory ?

David · 9th February 2013, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

This auction description begs the question: is "bone" the new designation for Ivory ?

Well, it is when you are trying to slip past CITES regulations, but then they do make a point about such materials on the page so they were obviously aware that it is ivory.

Robert · 9th February 2013, 09:24 PM

Beautiful sword, too bad there are not better photos of it.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 9th February 2013, 09:35 PM

Are these hard to find?

Spunjer · 10th February 2013, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Are these hard to find?

Yes, especially with a complete pommel like that. To a lot of moro sword collectors, this would be the ultimate piece...
But for $9600.00, that's crazy

CharlesS · 10th February 2013, 01:14 AM

A beauty she is, but I'm also surprised by the price it fetched.

Those silver dot inserts have got to make an already fragile ivory pommel even more so, and if you have a close look at the 'beak', it looks like there may already be a break...or working on it.

Rick · 10th February 2013, 01:22 AM

I wonder sometimes if we are seeing an investing shift to 'tangibles' and a corresponding price increase .

It is a nice piece with all the bells and whistles .

Would this ship without Customs inspection within the E.U. ?
Anyone ?

Spunjer · 10th February 2013, 02:24 AM

I have to wait until i get home to see the enlarged version of this, but from what i can see from my mobile phone, it appears that the bottom beak of the chicken, as well as that one curly feather at the bottom of the tail are missing. Either these broke off, or it's a different version altogether.

Battara · 10th February 2013, 02:34 AM

I agree with Charles on the fragility of the ivory with all those silver dot wire inlays. Would more easily crack between dots due to subtle swelling and contracting as the ivory "breathes".

I am trying to figure out how to get pictures off the link to post - no luck so far.

Wish I had this one - but I don't have anywhere near the money.

Battara · 10th February 2013, 07:28 AM

Ok here are some better(?) close ups:

BTW - I'm thinking that a curl nor a tail decoration existed.

Spunjer · 10th February 2013, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok here are some better(?) close ups:

BTW - I'm thinking that a curl nor a tail decoration existed.

yup, you're right. i'm looking at it as we speak on my desktop. i wish they would've given the size of the pommel. i don't think it's the same size as the one you got from the show last year. what do you think?

T. Koch · 10th February 2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Would this ship without Customs inspection within the E.U. ?
Anyone ?

It wouldn't slip past me that's for sure.

And I seriously doubt that a lot of other CITES M.A.s' wouldn't spot it either, but I guess it depends on the country and how well they're staffed. Here in DK, a long heavy package would already be marked by the customs officials, due to our draconian weapons legislation, and as such warrant closer inspection.

I think in this case, it's just a mess-up on Christies' account. After all, the headline do clearly say 'ivory' and they have that paragraph on CITES.

Often I fear more for my fellow collectors ordering from smaller dealers and Ebay-sellers. 'Bone', 'Fish tooth', 'Exotic horn' 'I*o*y', etc., may fool the rabid animal-right hippies trawling the net for eeeeevil traders in poor animals, but it will not fool a CITES-inspection at the border.

Without that CITES-export permit in the package (and in the case of Appendix I/Annex A material, a corresponding import-permit) it's bye-bye awesome sword or keris, and it's then gone for good. It's especially stupid and sad, since these things that we love mostly predate 1947 and as such are perfectly legal to trade in. There is no excuse for not getting that permit, but sheer lazyness or simply being too stingy with ones buyer.

Geeting back OT, hooooly crap that is an awesome sword!! One day when I'm rich, I'll be getting me one of those ivory jungayans for myself!

All the best, - Thor

David · 10th February 2013, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

There is no excuse for not getting that permit, but sheer lazyness or simply being too stingy with ones buyer.

What does it cost to get such a permit. Not really an excuse if you have the money to lay out almost $10,000 for such a sword, but probably the reason the average buyer doesn't do it. And the buyer is sometimes half way around the world. Doesn't the seller need to be the one to pursue such a permit since the sword is in their hands? Most sellers aren't interested in pursuing such a thing. So i think it is really the sellers who are lazy.
I know for sure that quite a bit of ivory comes into the USA right past customs through all kinds of delivery systems. Don't know how or even if they really check packages that come into this country for ivory parts. They may be more thorough in other countries.

Andrew · 10th February 2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder sometimes if we are seeing an investing shift to 'tangibles' and a corresponding price increase .

Battara · 10th February 2013, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yup, you're right. i'm looking at it as we speak on my desktop. i wish they would've given the size of the pommel. i don't think it's the same size as the one you got from the show last year. what do you think?

Well Ron:

1. I try not to think.

2. Yes mine is bigger.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...junggayan+kris

kai · 10th February 2013, 06:57 PM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

Those silver dot inserts have got to make an already fragile ivory pommel even more so, and if you have a close look at the 'beak', it looks like there may already be a break...or working on it.

I agree. From the pics, it even looks like the beak could be a replacement since the "crack" is running along the 2 visible surfaces...

Regards,
Kai

T. Koch · 10th February 2013, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

What does it cost to get such a permit. Not really an excuse if you have the money to lay out almost $10,000 for such a sword, but probably the reason the average buyer doesn't do it. And the buyer is sometimes half way around the world. Doesn't the seller need to be the one to pursue such a permit since the sword is in their hands? Most sellers aren't interested in pursuing such a thing. So i think it is really the sellers who are lazy.
I know for sure that quite a bit of ivory comes into the USA right past customs through all kinds of delivery systems. Don't know how or even if they really check packages that come into this country for ivory parts. They may be more thorough in other countries.

Yes, the CITES-export permit must be issued by the authority in the country from which the item is exported and my point was also that application for one is the responsibility of any decent seller. Depending on the material and the country of import however, a corresponding CITES-import permit might also be needed, so as a buyer it definitely pays to check up with your local authority. Having to confiscate awesome antiques is just so damn meaningless, but I guess it's also because I can personally really relate to the disappointment of the importer/collector.

I know the cost of a permit is £45,- in the UK, while here in the socialist regime that I call home, its free. But then again, we also have the world's highest most crushing personal tax pressure, so I really don't have my arms up in celebration over that fact. I don't know about prices in the US, although I'd be curious to find out.

Take care, - Thor

Sajen · 10th February 2013, 08:23 PM

I just have done some google research. In Germany it is like this: first you need a expertise from a expert. With this you have to go to a special board where you get the cites paper. This is possible with ivory which is from before 1947 but as well for ivory with a age between 1947 and 1976. The cost for expertise and cites paper will be between 80,- and 100,- Euro.

T. Koch · 11th February 2013, 06:58 AM

Ah cool, thanks Detlef. At the CITES Authority here in DK we have the capacity to do the evaluation for the citizens in house, i.e. by the sharp eye of Yours Truly!

Have a great day, - Thor

CharlesS · 11th February 2013, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Well Ron:

1. I try not to think.

2. Yes mine is bigger.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...junggayan+kris

Battara....I have been a BAD influence on you!

Battara · 11th February 2013, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Battara....I have been a BAD influence on you!

Why Charles, whatever do you mean?

Battara · 11th February 2013, 06:42 PM

I do admit it is odd that the nose break is straight across.....still not sure if it is not the original though.

Spunjer · 12th February 2013, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I do admit it is odd that the nose break is straight across.....still not sure if it is not the original though.

the pommel on that kris is the streamlined version. compare that to the attached picture below. notice it's missing the details on the chicken's head, and also the feather ukkil that runs down the tail. here they are, side by side for comparison...

mross · 12th February 2013, 08:32 PM

Whom ever bought it must see a whole lot more than I do.

Battara · 12th February 2013, 10:01 PM

I like it a lot, but not enough to sell my house for it (ok maybe I live in a shack

).

Perhaps it was a bidding war and the fact it was CHRISTIES that drove the price up so high.

mross · 12th February 2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I like it a lot, but not enough to sell my house for it (ok maybe I live in a shack

).

Perhaps it was a bidding war and the fact it was CHRISTIES that drove the price up so high.

That is about the only thing that makes sense. While it's a nice sword I do not see anything exceptional about it.

Battara · 12th February 2013, 11:24 PM

I understand. However I do like the silver dots and inlay (a sucker for precious metals as you know

).

VVV · 13th February 2013, 09:34 PM

Am I the only one who think the proportions of both the hilt (compared to the blade) and it's two protrusions (compared to the center of the hilt) are a bit unbalanced?
Spunjer's kris has much better proportions IMHO.
When I first saw it at Christie's site my hunch was that the complete hilt was a much later addition to an old blade?

Michael

9th February 2013, 08:28 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Moro Kris Silver Dots and Inlay Greetings folks! Here is a Moro kris from Christies that went for over $9000! Ivory with silver dots in the junggayan pommel and hllt, along with silver inlay along the blade: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...4-details.aspx Attached Images

10th February 2013, 01:14 AM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A beauty she is, but I'm also surprised by the price it fetched. Those silver dot inserts have got to make an already fragile ivory pommel even more so, and if you have a close look at the 'beak', it looks like there may already be a break...or working on it. Last edited by CharlesS; 10th February 2013 at 03:14 AM.

10th February 2013, 02:34 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I agree with Charles on the fragility of the ivory with all those silver dot wire inlays. Would more easily crack between dots due to subtle swelling and contracting as the ivory "breathes". I am trying to figure out how to get pictures off the link to post - no luck so far. Wish I had this one - but I don't have anywhere near the money. Last edited by Battara; 10th February 2013 at 02:54 AM.

10th February 2013, 07:28 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ok here are some better(?) close ups: BTW - I'm thinking that a curl nor a tail decoration existed. Attached Images

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9th February 2013, 08:38 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Well, nice kris, no doubt, but more than $9600! And it doesn't even have a sheath (not that it would make that much difference). Some people have waaaay too much money to throw around.

9th February 2013, 08:41 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	This auction description begs the question: is "bone" the new designation for Ivory ?

9th February 2013, 09:24 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Beautiful sword, too bad there are not better photos of it. Robert

9th February 2013, 09:35 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Are these hard to find?

10th February 2013, 01:22 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I wonder sometimes if we are seeing an investing shift to 'tangibles' and a corresponding price increase . It is a nice piece with all the bells and whistles . Would this ship without Customs inspection within the E.U. ? Anyone ?

10th February 2013, 02:24 AM	#10
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	I have to wait until i get home to see the enlarged version of this, but from what i can see from my mobile phone, it appears that the bottom beak of the chicken, as well as that one curly feather at the bottom of the tail are missing. Either these broke off, or it's a different version altogether.

10th February 2013, 08:23 PM	#20
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I just have done some google research. In Germany it is like this: first you need a expertise from a expert. With this you have to go to a special board where you get the cites paper. This is possible with ivory which is from before 1947 but as well for ivory with a age between 1947 and 1976. The cost for expertise and cites paper will be between 80,- and 100,- Euro.

11th February 2013, 06:58 AM	#21
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Ah cool, thanks Detlef. At the CITES Authority here in DK we have the capacity to do the evaluation for the citizens in house, i.e. by the sharp eye of Yours Truly! Have a great day, - Thor

11th February 2013, 06:42 PM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I do admit it is odd that the nose break is straight across.....still not sure if it is not the original though.

12th February 2013, 08:32 PM	#26
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Whom ever bought it must see a whole lot more than I do.

12th February 2013, 10:01 PM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I like it a lot, but not enough to sell my house for it (ok maybe I live in a shack ). Perhaps it was a bidding war and the fact it was CHRISTIES that drove the price up so high.

12th February 2013, 11:24 PM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I understand. However I do like the silver dots and inlay (a sucker for precious metals as you know ).

13th February 2013, 09:34 PM	#30
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Am I the only one who think the proportions of both the hilt (compared to the blade) and it's two protrusions (compared to the center of the hilt) are a bit unbalanced? Spunjer's kris has much better proportions IMHO. When I first saw it at Christie's site my hunch was that the complete hilt was a much later addition to an old blade? Michael