Greetings and Question from Newcomer Walaya

[WalayaSeno]

Hi All,

I have just join this wonderful forum as I have just started my interest in the sacred Indonesian Keris and would like to learn more from other experienced and senior members of this forum.

I am still very much at a early learning stage thus do pardon me if I were to post silly questions. Among all the known pamors of the keris, one of the most interesting pamor I am attracted to is the Pamor Kelabang Sayuto (Klabang Sayuto or Kelabang Sejuta) thus I would like to seek advice on more details (hopefully reference photos or pictures of this pamor) I hope to learn what is the significance and purpose (according to Javanese belief) of this beautiful pamor.

Peace.
Walaya

[David]

Welcome to the forum Walaya. I trust you will find much of interest on this forum. Sorry that i have no examples of this pamor that i can show you, but perhaps another member will.

[WalayaSeno]

Hi All,

I have another pamor which I am attracted to it would be - Buntel Mayit / Buntel Mayat which based on what I have read is that the "Tuah" of the Keris with this unique pamor is very picky and if the owner of the Keris with this pamor doesn't match up the result will be undesirable is this rumour true? Does anyone here own Keris with pamor Buntel Mayit can share their experiences here? Many thanks.

Best Regards,

Walaya

[sirek]

Hello Walaya,do you mean this pamor?
(quality of the photos are not as good as I want them to be )

[WalayaSeno]

Originally Posted by sirek

Hello Walaya,do you mean this pamor?
(quality of the photos are not as good as I want them to be )

Wow extremely beautiful Keris Anoman Pamor Kelabang Sayuto it's Bailnese Keris right sorry I am still learning...thanks for sharing! Cheers!

[Jean]

Hello,
I attach the pictures of 2 krisses with pamor Buntel Mayit/ Mayat.
Pamor Kelabang Sayuta is quite a rare one, I only have one recent blade with this pamor.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by WalayaSeno

...what I have read is that the "Tuah" of the Keris with this unique pamor is very picky and if the owner of the Keris with this pamor doesn't match up the result will be undesirable is this rumour true? Does anyone here own Keris with pamor Buntel Mayit can share their experiences here? Many thanks.

Buntel Mayit and Buntel Mayat have two distinctly different meanings. The first means something like "corpse wrapping" while the second means "slanted wrapping". Many people hold to the first spelling and i believe use that as a indication that there is some "danger" (corpse) involved with the ownership of a keris with this pamor, especially if one does not meet some specific personality requirements for ownership. But there is also a school of thought that sees "Mayit" as a mistaken transposition with "Mayat", which simply means "slanted" and perfectly describes the pamor. Of course, it make for a far more interesting story if the meaning of this pamor is "corpse wrapping" and we can let our imaginations run wild with what one might expect from such a pamor on the magickal/mystical side of the keris coin. Personally i find it is best to take all these stories about keris lore with a rather large grain of salt.

[A. G. Maisey]

The keris is a cultural and societal icon. This is particularly true in Jawa and Bali.

Because of the cultural and societal status of the keris it is necessary to approach the understanding of it from a position that at least approximates the understanding of the people who form the society from which it comes. The present day understanding of the keris in Jawa is an understanding that has developed from the original Javanese indigenous cultural belief system, overlaid by the amalgamation of Hindu-Buddhist beliefs that is known as the Javanese-Hindu belief system.

In Jawa since about 1500CE this original understanding of the keris has been progressively altered to an understanding that has become more acceptable to the Islamic belief system that has come to dominate Jawa. Islam in Jawa is a form of Islam that in its most prevalent form is a form unique to Jawa in that it incorporates indigenous Javanese belief with Sufic influences to create a thread of the Islamic faith that is heavily overlaid with mysticism.

In a society that observes the traditional beliefs associated with animism and ancestor worship, and then combines these beliefs with Sufic mysticism, it is inevitable that certain beliefs will be associated with certain inanimate objects, both natural and man made. Animism as it exists in Jawa holds that the same life essence is to be found in all things, but that life essence exists in varying quantities, and perhaps in varying qualities in those things.

The important thing for us to understand when we consider the esoteric powers associated with the keris is that for those people who are a part of the society that practices the relevant belief system, in this case, Kejawen, or Javanese Islam, those esoteric powers are real. They are not imagined powers, they are not artificial creations, they are real:- as real as the indisputable fact that one is being observed by one's ancestors and as real as the indisputable fact that the cosmos is not simply a place of a single dimension but has a component which can be readily seen, and a component which cannot be readily seen, but which under some circumstances may be visited, and which can certainly impact upon the part of the cosmos which can be seen. I feel that most of us here have heard of the "seen and the unseen worlds". Well, this is what it means, and its real, for those who live within this system of belief.

In fact, this phenomenon can even be real for somebody who is living outside the system, but upon whom the shared sub-conscious of those living within the system has effect.

It is an absolute and a total impossibility for a modern man from a post industrial society to understand anything at all about the Javanese keris unless he can develop the ability to see the cosmos in a similar way to that in which people who are traditionally orientated Javanese people see the cosmos. In the absence of this ability, it may be possible to gain a partial understanding by at least observing and attempting to understand the factors involved in the Javanese belief system.

So, when we consider the esoteric qualities that may, or may not, be attributed to a keris because of its pamor, or dhapur, or previous ownership or some other factor, a simple recitation of those esoteric qualities does not come even close an explanation of the qualities. Those esoteric qualities depend totally upon the beliefs of the person, or people, who are directly involved with the keris concerned.

The esoteric qualities of any keris cannot exist independent of the belief of a person or people in those qualities. In order to understand these beliefs it is necessary to begin with an understanding of the society and of the people of which that society is formed.

In other words:-

nobody ain't gunna learn nothin about the keris without they get a handle on the mob what done birthed it.

[T. Koch]

Alan Maisley, thank you for another great post about Javanese spirituality. I spent the past fall reading through Al-Qur'an for the first time and following I am very interested in learning about all the many different branches of Islam. I have also developed a recent fascination with the classical empires of the far east and I am superficially familiar with the Majapahit Empire and the wave of Hindu influence in SEA. I found your description in the above very enlightening.

Thank you also for the reminder that belief is not only an incredibly subjective concept, but also the very filter through which the mind perceives the world around it, leading to different people literally experiencing, (what we would objectively need to describe as) the same world, as vastly different realities. Something which, as I am sure you know, has been scientifically proven in many areas of research relating to the human mind.

I really enjoyed it - thank you again!


All the best, - Thor

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The important thing for us to understand when we consider the esoteric powers associated with the keris is that for those people who are a part of the society that practices the relevant belief system, in this case, Kejawen, or Javanese Islam, those esoteric powers are real. They are not imagined powers, they are not artificial creations, they are real:- as real as the indisputable fact that one is being observed by one's ancestors and as real as the indisputable fact that the cosmos is not simply a place of a single dimension but has a component which can be readily seen, and a component which cannot be readily seen, but which under some circumstances may be visited, and which can certainly impact upon the part of the cosmos which can be seen. I feel that most of us here have heard of the "seen and the unseen worlds". Well, this is what it means, and its real, for those who live within this system of belief.

Just to clarify, i completely agree with you here Alan, and i trust your post was not a direct response to something i said. My recommendation of taking certain bits of lore with a "grain of salt" was not a dismissal of keris esoterica or the mystical beliefs surrounding it as anyone who knows me would understand. My own world view is steeped in esoterica. It does seem, however, that in recent times many stories have been amplified or even created out of the blue to add more intrigue and mystery to the keris. The use of Mayit (corpse) as opposed to Mayat (slanted) may or may not be one of those times. I am not at all certain when we first find use of Mayit in association with this pamor. But i have seen how the morbid fascination over the "Death Pamor" has made this particular pamor one of extreme interest for certain Western collectors. Everyone loves a horror show, right? So from my perspective pushing Buntel Mayit as the proper name for this pamor seems to be a way of sparking interest in it from a commercial stand point. I could be way off base on that, but that is how i have observed discussion of this pamor among Western collectors. They are fascinated by the "danger" of it and many find it a desirable addition to their collects because of that. And so i recommend a "grain of salt", which isn't to say dismiss the notion, but simply to approach it with skepticism.

[A. G. Maisey]

No David, not targeted at you, nor your remarks, but the "grain of salt" could easily be misunderstood by somebody who is not conversant with the way in which you see things.

The keris is unique amongst edged weapons in that from a very early time in its history it was more than just a weapon, but people who have an interest in the keris very often see it as no more than a rather unusual type of dagger. At the present time there seems to be at least three approaches to the keris, one is the approach where we regard it as an art work, another where we regard it as some sort of magical talisman, and then there is its character as a weapon. Certainly, the keris can be a work of art, and certainly it is magical --- but the magic that is a part of the keris is not at all the type of magic that the vast bulk of people would understand. The magical view of the keris at the present time, in all except the most restricted communities, is a view that has been created by mankind as a blossom of imagination and misunderstanding.

In the understanding of almost anything, there are different levels of understanding. Some people understand that when you turn the key in the ignition lock of a motor vehicle the engine will start and then if they do a few other things the motor vehicle will proceed in a particular way. These people understand motor vehicles and how they work. In so far as their knowledge will permit. But then there is the understanding of the motor mechanic, the motor engineer, the designer --- and so on and so on. At each level the understanding of the motor vehicle becomes a little more detailed and complex.

Many passages in the Christian Bible have been written in a way that permits an understanding by the layman, which is sufficient to his level of knowledge and his situation, but beneath that superficial understanding there may be one or perhaps more levels of understanding that can only be accessed by the person with the knowledge to gain access.

Understanding depends upon knowledge.

Can anybody read if they do not know the letters of the alphabet? Of course not. Similarly one cannot understand anything unless the foundation knowledge is learnt first.

The keris is at its roots a weapon with a single esoteric tie to Javanese indigenous beliefs. Over the last 1000 years or so much has been added to this foundation, and much has been taken away. What we understand about the keris at this point in time is the end result of this ongoing change. But this is like anything:- if enough people believe that something is so, then of course it is so --- until such time as can be shown otherwise.

Thus it is that present understanding of the keris is not the product of knowledge, but rather the product of adherence to group belief. Modern advertising methods are very skilled in creating group belief, and these methods are a direct descendent of the methods of propaganda. The management and manipulation of a demographic. Just because a lot of people believe something, that does not make it so.

There is only one way that we can come to understand the keris, and that is by a dedicated study of the society and history of the place that gave it to the world:- Jawa.

That is a message that I have been trying to get people to accept for a very long time, but the reality is that it is simply too hard, and too time consuming for most people to seek out hard to come by publications, and then to read and analyse them. Its a lot easier to consult Dr. Google. In Dr. Google's lessons what we have is the epitome of group belief:- think about it, that is exactly the way Dr. Google works.

Anybody here involved in academia, or with academics? How many people do you know, even through to Phd candidates, who do their "research" in front of a computer screen. This starts at high school --- or before. Here in the Land of Oz children in high school now do most of their work on computers, and since this has occurred there has been an increase in completed assignments. Why? Because these children are not fools, they simply ask Dr. Google a question, cut and paste, do a shuffle with the words, and hand in their assignment. Ask them to read the printed page of a textbook and they're asleep before they get to the foot of the page. Ask them what is meant by a passage of anything and you get a garbled response that is a mix of nonsense and canned comment from an internet site.

Yes, I admit, a lot of texts and worthwhile material has now been made available online, but the vast majority of people using the net for research purposes don't go past page 3 of a search, thus what gets regurgitated in the assignments and papers is representative of group opinion. I think of this as "bottom line learning" . Its the approach where you get the greatest return in marks for the smallest amount of time invested. Accounting principles.

My feeling is that most people with a keris interest have only a very slight, superficial interest in a rather exotic physical object. There is little if any interest in what that physical object truly is.