id request marking on touareg sword

[Congoblades]

Hi, someone seen this mark before?
It's not mine, these are the only pictures I have.

[Iain]

That's a new one to me. Hard to tell from the photos if its scratched (probably locally applied) or stamped (probably original).

Best guess at the moment would be a stamp on the steel used for the blade. As the sword overall doesn't look particularly old it could be made from recycled steel in which case this could make some sense.

Otherwise its nothing like traditional talisman markings and copies of older European marks I've seen on takouba.

Interesting thing for sure. Is it owned by a friend of yours and perhaps we could get better images?

[Congoblades]

Originally Posted by Iain

Best guess at the moment would be a stamp on the steel used for the blade. As the sword overall doesn't look particularly old it could be made from recycled steel in which case this could make some sense.
?

Thanks Iain. Intresting point of view, this make sence. the sword was pretty thin and flexible, not really battleready, but then there was this stamp... lol
It was collected in the early seventies in the Sahel.
It's not from a friend, I wanted to buy it but didn'nt, lucky me

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Thanks Iain. Intresting point of view, this make sence. the sword was pretty thin and flexible, not really battleready, but then there was this stamp... lol
It was collected in the early seventies in the Sahel.
It's not from a friend, I wanted to buy it but didn'nt, lucky me

Best idea I have at the moment. This happens on takouba and kaskara from the 20th century on. Any piece of good steel was used and recycled into everything from swords to arm daggers. Thin and flexible is not a bad thing for a takouba.

1970s sounds exactly right for how this looks. Pretty typical sword and usually very easy to find takouba of this quality.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Hi, someone seen this mark before?

Hello Congoblades
little bit complicated that mark, because at least, is contained three (3)
indications

1) location; Vendée,region in west central France, on the Atlantic Ocean
"Vendée" has been after French revolution (1789) a land of rebellion.
Their motto in battle was "Vive le roi!" and "Vive les bons prêtres!";
Long live the King, Long live the good priests and Long live the faith!
they was bearing on their clothes that "heart overcome a cross"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vend%C3%A9e

2) the marine anchor, may indicated either that the guy was a seaman, or more probably,
belonging to "colonial troops" they have this badge (anchor)

3) I didn't found an explanation for the "F. S. A." I'm confused my sagacity is at fault ...


à +

Dom

[Congoblades]

Originally Posted by Dom

2) the marine anchor, may indicated either that the guy was a seaman, or more probably,
belonging to "colonial troops" they have this badge (anchor)

Hi Dom,
Maybe this? My french is not to good, so you will understand it better than me
http://infos.fncv.com/post/2011/10/0...ts-ecologistes

The heart&cross logo is apparently still in use...
Greets
Guy

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Hi Dom,
Maybe this? My french is not to good, so you will understand it better than me
http://infos.fncv.com/post/2011/10/0...ts-ecologistes

The heart&cross logo is apparently still in use...
Greets
Guy

Hi Guy
according with your link, it's exactly what I was suggesting you

Marine Infantry Regiment (RIMA) is a regiment of naval troops (army) of the French Army,
R.I.Ma = Régiment Infanterie de Marine either "Marines" like US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Colonial_Forces
the badge attached (pic), is the official French Army beret badge for all R.I.Ma
many troops from "Coloniale" have been to Sahara, residence for the Tuaregs, not strange to find this mark

The heart&cross logo is apparently still in use..., yes for sure, for the nostalgic of the royalty ...

ps/ your link attached was concerning a political fight between,
- some who support Army, and
- "green" who hate Army,
the "greens" was accusing the "R.I.Ma" of
"Colonialism, Militarism and religious proselytism" ... because

the Colonial's shout is, "in the name of God" - "Vive la colonial"
too much for them (green), who are anti-militarist, anti-clerical

too long to develop all argumentation, I was NCO during my military service,
as for me, the army is "sacred", it is not negotiable

à +

Dom

attached a pic for a badge of "Colonial regiment in Sahara",

Established in 1903 as a group of N'Guigmi meharist (camel riders) .
Becomes nomadic group N'Guigmi 1 January 1958.
Becomes nomadic group No. 9 on 1 December 1958.
Becomes nomadic 9egroupe 1 January 1961.
Dissolved on 30 September 1962.

Explanation of symbols
The head of camel and palm symbolizes the vocation of the unit
you have your evidence ... camel = Tuareg + anchor for "R.I.Ma"

[Ferguson]

http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/i...hp/t63614.html

Symbol looks very similar

"The cross, the anchor, and the heart represent the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity respectivily. It is based on the cross and anchor symbol used by the early Christians in the catacombs, the added heart representing humanity. Many Catholic missionary services use this symbol."


Steve

[Iain]

I think the French military connection looks very probable now - if the mark is "scratched" and not stamped it seems likely a French service member could have requested it when purchasing or ordering the sword.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Ferguson

http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/i...hp/t63614.html Symbol looks very similar

Good Day Steve
may I bring a precision about the cross that you display
this particular cross, has an history, and signification, unfortunately, not exactly as you mentionned

your cross, it's a "Camargue" cross ...
the Camargue cross is an emblem created by the artist Hermann Paul in 1924 at the request of the Marquis Folco de Baroncelli.
the cross for faith
the anchor for hope
the heart for love
the three-pronged forks at the top not only represent tridents, but also the tool used by "manadiers" (cowboys) (manade; is as bull farm established on Rhone delta, front to Mediterranean sea) see for more details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manade

all the best

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

It is interesting that the heart topped by the cross was an early 'balemark' or 'merchants mark' used by the East India Co. with quartered heart holding initials VEIC, and later altered with the cross becoming the number 4.
The cross and orb was also a very commonly seen device on many of the blades seen in the Sudan and Saharan regions. Naturally the association is tenuous at best, but worth mentioning.

I think the suggestions regarding the French device are well placed, and of course French colonial presence would easily allow for this marking either being present in these contexts. It is tempting to consider the meaning of the acronym and this traditional French symbol being represented in this inscribed device, but puzzling why it would have been placed with such detail on a native takouba blade. It seems that the position to the side on the blade resembles that of trademarks of steel firms seen in these kinds of positions on blades from British firms and on kaskaras in Sudan. Again, not even close to conclusive but worthy of consideration.

The anchor component is interesting, but nothing that native artisans would likely copy, and why would someone in a French unit or organization be using a takouba?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The anchor component is interesting, but nothing that native artisans would likely copy, and why would someone in a French unit or organization be using a takouba?

My line of thinking was customized tourist bring back by a French service member... Could be totally off, but that just seems the most likely to me. Memento of a tour in the region perhaps...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Iain

My line of thinking was customized tourist bring back by a French service member... Could be totally off, but that just seems the most likely to me. Memento of a tour in the region perhaps...

I missed seeing your post noting the military suggestion, and in that perspective seems quite plausible. It seems that the 'souvenier' industry in North Africa was pretty lucrative, not only in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan post Omdurman, but naturally in the long standing French Sudan regions. We know that 'customizing' these bring back weapons was done for British troops in Egypt, Sudan and in Aden...so it makes sense that same might be done for French...now to figure what unit the acronym might represent.

All the best,
Jim

[Congoblades]

Originally Posted by Iain

I think the French military connection looks very probable now - if the mark is "scratched" and not stamped it seems likely a French service member could have requested it when purchasing or ordering the sword.

It is not "scratched", its a smooth ?mechanical stamped mark.

[Dom]

as some here ... like the "wonderful"
I'll use it, though ... at least ... everything is possible, only God knows

in South Algerian Sahara, among the Tuareg territories lived a time an hermit (1904-1916)
he was belong from the old French nobility, before being a monk, he was a French military officer
after twelve years spent in the wilderness of Sahara, one day a Tuareg had killed him

all this to say that, the monastic order that he had tried to create, had the same symbol;
- the cross overcoming a heart
his name; Charles Eugène de Foucauld de Pontbriand
he published under a pseudonym the first Tuareg-French dictionary.
The work of Charles de Foucauld is a reference to the knowledge of the Tuareg culture.

attention I do not necessarily connects the "Katuba" with the above, I note just some coincidences
- Place; Sahara
- Person; Touareg = takouba
- Symbol, worn by the Father eddy Sahara, the French army in these places, and what we saw on the sword

to each one to do his own scenario

à +

Dom

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

It is not "scratched", its a smooth ?mechanical stamped mark.

Well that makes it more puzzling to me and kind of throws out the French service member theory. I'm back to wondering about scrap steel.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Dom

as some here ... like the "wonderful"
I'll use it, though ... at least ... everything is possible, only God knows

in South Algerian Sahara, among the Tuareg territories lived a time an hermit (1904-1916)
he was belong from the old French nobility, before being a monk, he was a French military officer
after twelve years spent in the wilderness of Sahara, one day a Tuareg had killed him

all this to say that, the monastic order that he had tried to create, had the same symbol;
- the cross overcoming a heart
his name; Charles Eugène de Foucauld de Pontbriand
he published under a pseudonym the first Tuareg-French dictionary.
The work of Charles de Foucauld is a reference to the knowledge of the Tuareg culture.

attention I do not necessarily connects the "Katuba" with the above, I note just some coincidences
- Place; Sahara
- Person; Touareg = takouba
- Symbol, worn by the Father eddy Sahara, the French army in these places, and what we saw on the sword

to each one to do his own scenario

à +

Dom

Just saw your post Dom, very interesting stuff! Was he generally a well regarded and respected figure by the Tuareg? This is potentially a fascinating link to the symbol in the region.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Iain

Was he generally a well regarded and respected figure by the Tuareg?

yes for sure, otherwise, how to stay among Tuaregs during so many years
just one day, he crossed the way of an fanatic illuminated,
and has been the drama,
don't need more than one, unfortunately ...

the Tuargui society is a little bit particular
- women are unveiled, but men are ... veiled, at their puberty
- women are owner, for their lands, their flocks, and so
- men are no more than the "guards" for these assets
- it's the women who choose their husband, for wedding it's her, she made the demand ...
and the list is long ...

society very engaging, fascinating,
but now living completely out of our time
I know a little, to have attended them, during my professional life in South Sahara

à +

Dom

[Iain]

Hi Dom,

They are indeed a fascinating people. I have wanted to make a trip in the western Sahel regions but sadly the current geopolitical situation from Mali through Niger and North Nigeria make this not a great idea right now.

Some of the cultural traits you mentioned among the Tuareg, like the position of women, also occur in neighboring groups like the Fulani. Probably the most documented being the ritual for young men of the Wodaabe including elaborate face makeup.

Very interesting to hear you spent time in those regions. I always love hearing stories about these groups from people that traveled and met them.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Iain

I have wanted to make a trip in the western Sahel regions but sadly the current geopolitical situation from Mali through Niger and North Nigeria make this not a great idea right now.

Hello Iain
for present time, just forget it ...
previously, a war has to pass over, to clean all the dust over there ...
then, may be later ...
but not before at least 2 to 3 years, at the best

let's hope for the best, specially for the civilians, not engaged in political protestation, or religious fights,
but who any way, will have to pay the expensive price, to be there

all the best

à +

Dom