A Very Old Kris

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by David

The commonly accepted wisdom is that the keris as we know it (asymmetrical blade, gonjo, gandik, greneng, etc.) originated in Jawa, but the basic design for the keris didn't just pop out of thin air. Other blades certainly influenced its design. It did not develop in a vacuum. The "modern" keris (Mojopahit) developed in a Hindu influenced empire whose cultural roots come from India. Nepal is right next to India and also a Hindu state influenced by India. So, while i hate to surprise you like this Lorenz, of course there is a possibility, maybe even a likelihood, that this Nepalese blade is related to the keris and perhaps a forerunner in design to what was to become the "modern" keris in Jawa in the Mojopahit (or before) period. The Javanese keris has a few differences in the details, the specifics that we have already been over many times in this thread. The Moro kris, which doesn't seem to arrive until at least a couple of centuries later (again, please show me a Moro kris with all features intact that is earlier than the 16th century) has these same exact details of design. So for me, given all the present evidence we have to examine, the Moro kris was developed based on the specific design elements of the "modern" Javanese keris. All these features in the Javanese keris were fully intact before they appeared on the Moro kris.

Hi David. On the possible Nepali connection, I think that it can only be plausible if we can discover ancient Indian blades which remotely resemble kerises.

I can think of another illustration to visualize your scenario: let's imagine a figurative tree where the trunk is Indian Hinduism, the source of it all. Then there would be an older and lower branch and that would be Nepalese Hinduism. Then there would be a higher and younger other branch, and that would be Indonesian Hinduism (and a twig off this branch would be Philippine Hinduism, because we got our Hinduism by way of Indonesia).

Now to my mind if your hypothesis is to be plausible (that that Nepalese kris-like sword was derived from India, in the same manner that the Javanese keris had its ultimate roots from India), we should see lots of examples of Indian proto-kerises in ancient stone carvings, metal statues, etc.

But so far I haven't seen any (and I've been looking, too). So at the moment, I think it's just purely coincidental that that Nepalese blade resembles the Southeast Asian kris.

But as you also said, let's all continue to look for evidences, to either prove or disprove the theory, thereby continuing to make progress.