Group of Samurai by the Sphinx in 1864

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely amazing esoterica!!!

Reminds me of the 1972 movie "Red Sun" with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. Some years ago I recall some discussions and an article by Peter Bleed concerning the presence of Japanese katanas with American Indians in the latter half of the 19th century. A photo of the Sioux chief Red Cloud revealed a katana on a wall behind him.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely amazing esoterica!!!

Reminds me of the 1972 movie "Red Sun" with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. Some years ago I recall some discussions and an article by Peter Bleed concerning the presence of Japanese katanas with American Indians in the latter half of the 19th century. A photo of the Sioux chief Red Cloud revealed a katana on a wall behind him.

How wonderful! I wonder what Red Cloud's impressions were of his Katana?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

How wonderful! I wonder what Red Cloud's impressions were of his Katana?

Actually it seems that several of the Indian chiefs had gone to Washington during treaty negotiations as the wars and events were nearing thier end in that period. During thier visit apparantly the katana was among diplomatic gifts presented to figures in Washington during an earlier Japanese embassy and the katana was likely presented in that sense to Red Cloud. The sword, while not used as a weapon by the Indian warriors was held ceremonially as an emblem of power and there are numbers of examples of U.S. and other swords known.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Some years ago I recall some discussions and an article by Peter Bleed concerning the presence of Japanese katanas with American Indians in the latter half of the 19th century.

Here is an example of that.

[trenchwarfare]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an example of that.

Super cool thread! The Katana in the in the photo, looks to be a Satsuma Rebellion sword. According to the handle wrap. In looking at the Samurai in front of the Sphinx, it's a shame you can't see their cameras.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Super cool thread! The Katana in the in the photo, looks to be a Satsuma Rebellion sword. According to the handle wrap. In looking at the Samurai in front of the Sphinx, it's a shame you can't see their cameras.

I'm just curious, what specific characteristics would you ascribe to the tsuka (and in particular the handle wrap) that you would attribute to the Satsuma Rebellion?

[trenchwarfare]

During the rebellion, any and all available blades were seized, and hastily assembled into swords. Often by unskilled individuals. Ito, was usually narrow, or even round cord. The wrapping technique was different, and left long narrow openings, revealing the same. Simple iron washers were used for menuki. The sword in the picture appears to have these narrow openings. This style wrap, also appears on WWII era Island made swords. (And, early Chinese fakes)

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

During the rebellion, any and all available blades were seized, and hastily assembled into swords. Often by unskilled individuals. Ito, was usually narrow, or even round cord. The wrapping technique was different, and left long narrow openings, revealing the same. Simple iron washers were used for menuki. The sword in the picture appears to have these narrow openings. This style wrap, also appears on WWII era Island made swords. (And, early Chinese fakes)

Hi TW,

You must have the eyes of a hawk then, as I see ito that looks pretty similar to the ito I've seen on nearly every nihonto I've ever encountered.

I get what you're saying about the ito, but at that resolution, I see no iron menuki, no plain iron band kashira or fuchi, and to me the ito looks no different than other ito.

Here's a photo of "Satsuma Rebellion koshirae:"



I put it in quotation marks as there was a good discussion on NMB a few years ago about the validity of this attribution... the Samurai who fought during the Satsuma Rebelion were just that... Samurai, and thus they would already have owned a proper katana en suite with a wakizashi, with no need for cobbled-together kazu-uchi mono. It is therefore the impression of the Curator Emeritus of the Oriental Collections of the Royal Armoury Museum at Leeds that the poorly-assembled koshirae we refer to as "Satsuma Rebellion" pieces had nothing to do with the Satsuma Rebellion!

[trenchwarfare]

I get what you're saying, as well. I'm just repeating what I've read, and observed. It does appear to me, that the tsuka in the photo, has more openings, and their closer together than most traditional swords. Perhaps, the "rebellion" swords, were the earliest form of tourista fakery?