interesting jambiya on eBay

[spiral]

It is.....

Actualy Ibrahiim your hot pin method would only show it is horn not timber.

{Assuming the "pin" is a needle with enough residual heat to actualy burn the horn or timber enough to not only leave a permanent scar but but also to raise the fumes.}

Scientificaly one generaly uses ones eyes to percieve the structure of both horn & timber under magnification to identify them.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

It is.....

Actualy Ibrahiim your hot pin method would only show it is horn not timber.

{Assuming the "pin" is a needle with enough residual heat to actualy burn the horn or timber enough to not only leave a permanent scar but but also to raise the fumes.}

Scientificaly one generaly uses ones eyes to percieve the structure of both horn & timber under magnification to identify them.

spiral

Salaams spiral ~ Yes I agree however there is another sense which one can employ...that of the sense of smell and as you probably know Rhino gives off a burnt hair aroma... wood smells like burning wood. One of the other tests using ones scientifically perceived eyes is the light test with a bright light to view the translucent effect particularly in aged Rhino which is usually dramatic in the peripherary of the test item.
I still hope we are looking at an old Rhino example.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams spiral ~ Yes I agree however there is another sense which one can employ...that of the sense of smell and as you probably know Rhino gives off a burnt hair aroma... wood smells like burning wood. One of the other tests using ones scientifically perceived eyes is the light test with a bright light to view the translucent effect particularly in aged Rhino which is usually dramatic in the peripherary of the test item.
I still hope we are looking at an old Rhino example.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bonjure Ibrahim!

Yes I agree that with a sharp edge & very bright light even inner core of rhino with heavy melanin & calcium deposits can have a 1mm of translucency. This is harder on very rounded surfaces of course.

Also this is not a black core but does have years of dirt without the care of oiling, which also promotes the translucency, hence it being more common with age.

One of my points was, identyfying horn by burning as well as bieng destructive doesnt rule out other horn types, they all smell of burning hair.

Beneath the years of dirt no oiling it may be translucent & indeed if set on fire.

But the clear formation structure of this jambiya grip, is rhino horn, I grew up in a family working at importing timber world wide, we had boxes of recognition keys for identyfying timber end grain under magnification. I recognise that this is no timber & the only horn with fiberous orange peel effect on the cross cut end grain is rhino!

Simple realy...

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjure Ibrahim!

Yes I agree that with a sharp edge & very bright light even inner core of rhino with heavy melanin & calcium deposits can have a 1mm of translucency. This is harder on very rounded surfaces of course.

Also this is not a black core but does have years of dirt without the care of oiling, which also promotes the translucency, hence it being more common with age.

One of my points was, identyfying horn by burning as well as bieng destructive doesnt rule out other horn types, they all smell of burning hair.

Beneath the years of dirt no oiling it may be translucent & indeed if set on fire.

But the clear formation structure of this jambiya grip, is rhino horn, I grew up in a family working at importing timber world wide, we had boxes of recognition keys for identyfying timber end grain under magnification. I recognise that this is no timber & the only horn with fiberous orange peel effect on the cross cut end grain is rhino!

Simple realy...

spiral

Salaams spiral ... I knew that and joking apart... I would like to see the basic tests done to determine the material. It would be quite rare to have a Royal Khanjar hilt in Rhino simply because the entire thing is usually covered in decorative filigree silver. On the other hand it tends to swerve the debate toward the Muscat 8 Ringer ~ What it is exactly; I have to say I don't know.
However I think, now, looking at it with magnification you are right ! Rhino. That marks it up about 1000% for quality.
The exact provenance is still a puzzle....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams spiral ... I knew that and joking apart... I would like to see the basic tests done to determine the material. It would be quite rare to have a Royal Khanjar hilt in Rhino simply because the entire thing is usually covered in decorative filigree silver. On the other hand it tends to swerve the debate toward the Muscat 8 Ringer ~ What it is exactly; I have to say I don't know.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Not as rare as you think. came across 3 here in Kuwait. Ordered one for a friend from Australia. There are some, but as you said the number of silver makes it hard to notice.

EDIT: And damn do they sell fast. Mainly Saudi's buy them.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Not as rare as you think. came across 3 here in Kuwait. Ordered one for a friend from Australia. There are some, but as you said the number of silver makes it hard to notice.

EDIT: And damn do they sell fast. Mainly Saudi's buy them.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ Interesting as that gives a pointer to the Murrah. It would explain the bedu style basic workbelt and the peculiar blade which may be Syrian. If it is Rhino ( and I believe it is ) you have a rare one.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas~ Interesting as that gives a pointer to the Murrah. It would explain the bedu style basic workbelt and the peculiar blade which may be Syrian. If it is Rhino ( and I believe it is ) you have a rare one.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hmm am not sure about the connection. Most of the Omani Rhino khanjars actually come from Oman to Kuwait recently by some antique dealers or as gifts..

I need to hit the tribes history book and see the movement of Murrah. Btw, do you mean a specific branch, maybe one related to the Murrah's of Qatar?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

However I think, now, looking at it with magnification you are right ! Rhino. That marks it up about 1000% for quality.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it...

Spiral

[kahnjar1]

FROM IBRAHIIM'S POST ABOVE
One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.


Your point is noted Ibrahiim......As has been stated previously here, the "borders" spoken of are MODERN DAY lines in the sand. I think we are well aware that these modern day countries did not come into being until relatively recent times. I am simply trying to place the POSSIBLE origin of this piece. This is after all a DISCUSSION Forum.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

FROM IBRAHIIM'S POST ABOVE
One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.


Your point is noted Ibrahiim......As has been stated previously here, the "borders" spoken of are MODERN DAY lines in the sand. I think we are well aware that these modern day countries did not come into being until relatively recent times. I am simply trying to place the POSSIBLE origin of this piece. This is after all a DISCUSSION Forum.

Salaams kahnjar1 Please do not get me wrong on this ... Im not trying to be clever.. A whole lot of folks ( even here) are unfamiliar with the borders of these three countries which are stil ill defined and for many years have had little or no access. I even refer to peripheral areas of adjoining countries myself... forgetting that Saudia border areas are utterly moonlike in landscape and no fixed habitation exists for hundreds of miles. Criss crossing this region are the infrequent tribes,(like al Murrah) though, this doesn't constitute a fixed ethnographic base for artefacts. Where there is a lot of cross border leakage both ways is Oman/Yemen since the tribes straddle the border. I think this is where this dagger is likely to have been used and later, according to the new owner, it has been traded through a Kuwaiti dealer... perhaps gathered in Salalah.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it...

Spiral

Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
Your expertise with the wood tagging is indeed a rare talent.. Although there are some odd woods here like Meez, Karot and an almost iron hard heavyweight thing from the Jebel Akhdar called Atom none of which were exported except the latter, apparently, as the favoured woodwork on some K98K Vermacht rifles in the early part of WW2. It is teak white in colour but stains black almost like ebony and carves well. All three are favoured these days as camel stick wood.
Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

"Originally Posted by spiral

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it... "

Spiral
Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
Your expertise with the wood tagging is indeed a rare talent.. Although there are some odd woods here like Meez, Karot and an almost iron hard heavyweight thing from the Jebel Akhdar called Atom none of which were exported except the latter, apparently, as the favoured woodwork on some K98K Vermacht rifles in the early part of WW2. It is teak white in colour but stains black almost like ebony and carves well. All three are favoured these days as camel stick wood.
Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

My "expertise" with wood is minimal, sadley, Its a process of work or recognition & rejection based opn key cards.... & a few get remebered of course & the basic growth structures of wood sometimes remembered.

There a many thousands of commercial species, I would merly recognise a few hundred. {Of course the undestading & use of keys can with enough time recognise any commercial species.If one puts enough hours in.} If the species is uncommercial then its on to those Fedral labs. Kew garden types who have non commercial species ID. cards as well.

But thank you for understanding my stance, I couldnt see why you couldnt see it, For many reasons I was relieved when you did.

You took my stance well I think..

Shukran!

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
.................................................. .........

Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahim!

PerhapsI recomend the book "The Art of Rhinoceros Horn Carving in China" by Jan Chapman to you Ibrahiim.

Although not perfect it has many excelent photos demonstrating genuine Rhino horn grain, growth styles etc. Also a small section on fake horns.

I am sure you would find it interesting & helpfull, Given your earlier opinions re the both horn in this & the "Recent Jambiya and a new Khanjar " thread by Archer.

Regards
Spiral