Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Thanks guys for your continued input.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
Excellent discussion and fascinating sabre! and nicely done research in the entries by all on a topic I had not really encountered before. This is the first Ive seen of these apparantly Austrian sabres with pala blades. I agree this blade appears European interpretation of these Ottoman forms.

I would suggest this Austrian pattern officers hilt post 1845 with this unusual blade may be associated with diplomatic or presentation circumstances during the early years of the Austro-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1878 until WWI. This was undertaken with concerns with the decaying Ottoman control and strategic location, and possibly the Islamic motif had to do of course with Bosniak matters there, perhaps with military officer in Austrian service. I am not familiar with the alphabet of these regions but perhaps the letters may correspond to that period in these regions? The stars and crescent may also have to do with device in the developing Bosnian flag or insignia. I had originally thought of these symbols used as mentioned in Egypt and Arabian context, as well as shooting stars and crescent used by Solingen later in the 19th c. but as yet unclear on those possible connections.

Just a theory, but seems plausible that further research might reveal some connection, and as already noted, this sword likely quite important to that historical period.

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
Just a quick note. Thanks for your input re this unusual piece. What I have not said before is that there is clear evidence of the sword having been used, not abused, combatively i.e. small nicks on the edge where one may expect them and some small 'cuts' on the upper edge consistent with edge contact/parrying with another blade. I'm not sure about the date to the latter half of the 19thC I'm pretty sure the hilt pattern had changed by then. Thanks again for having a look. I would be interested if anyone could comment more on the make up of the blade re the obvious pattern, is it definitely a pattern welded blade?
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
Good points! I am thinking that perhaps in this context (Austrian occupied Bosnia) that possibly this sabre might have been used in Bosniak auxiliary contingents? Austria was in many ways the pioneer of these kinds of units in the 18th century with thier Pandour regiments, made up of mostly Croatian and other Balkan as well as Hungarian troops. While the original units of von Trenck were disbanded the concept of auxiliary ethnic forces to units of the line remained very much in force and adopted by other imperial powers as well.
This often led to 'exotic' weapon hybrids and I have seen examples of hirshfanger style yataghan bladed sabres presumed to be of French Illyrian units as well as yataghan bladed sabres in English cavalry hilts of 1796 pattern. Europe was intrigued by exotic 'oriental' blade forms and it seems that 'flamboyant' styles were often favored by the fashion conscious officers particularly in 'foreign' theater postings.
This was also very much the case in the British Raj where British officers commanding native regiments often adopted thier weapon forms even modifying regulation patterns into fascinating hybrids. I have seen various regulation military pattern hilts on tulwar blades, and khanda and tulwar hilts on British regulation pattern blades.

While the pattern may have ceased or of course been superceded among the line regiments, these changes typically had considerably delayed impact in colonial and occupied regions far from that perview. In British India for example, the M1796 light cavalry blade was very much favored by Indian troops and these were produced to supply them through the 19th century even though they had been obsolete officially since the 1820s. Also in colonial or occupied territories weapons in use continued for dramatically extended periods. In colonial New Spain weapons obsolete on the continent were even in use far beyond, and even the 17th and 18th century style swords were used well into the 19th century.

Just more thoughts which might lend to possibilities for this interesting sabre. The presentation example shown in corroboration suggests that perhaps this blade form was used in some degree in these hilts. Very much looking forward to ideas and observations of others as well.

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Text that accompanies the photo from the Higgins.
Regards,
Norman.

Steel single 'Kilij' blade of European manufacture. Triangular section with flat back to false edge 1/3 of length from point. Both faces nearly identically etched with trophy groups, foliate scrolls, sun-in-splendor & crescent moon. Back of blade etched with undulating foliate tendril. All decoration with traces of gilding. Basket type hilt, probably model 1845, peirced with leaved tendrils & strong turned edge. Near pommel, guard pierced with 2 slots for sword knot. Below this are characters "FI" suggesting Ferdinand I whose reign ended in 1848. Modified bird's head pommel with rounded back strap & fish-skin wrapped wooden grip with twisted & plain brass wire. Inside of guard at base of grip are traces of what may be incised letters. Some brazed repairs on hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

In checking in Wagner, p.420 (plate 50) shows the M1845 (much like the second example you show still in the Higgins.This has the same scroll basket guard and stepped pommel, but closer scrolled terminal with no parallel slots for swordknot.

P.422 (plate 52) confirms that your hilt is the M1850 which has these slots.

It seems that the M1845 swords had curved blade with a distinct yelman very much like oriental blades have, though of course not as pronounced as this pala type profile. The M1850 blade seems to have been of the more European profile without the yelman.

What is curious is the pommels on both these patterns have the stepped pommels, while yours seems to have a smooth 'birdhead'.

Ferdinand I apparantly abdicated in 1848 to quell political unrest in the revolutionary events that year, and his nephew Franz Joseph took power. Could the F in the cypher as well represent him? He was in power into the 20th century. It certainly does complicate matters with a device or letters representing an Austrio-Hungarian monarch along with etched Islamic motif on the blade.
The blade does not necessary have to be original to the hilt of course and in Wagner there is one example shown with earlier blade paired with later hilt , noted as that of irregular Austrian unit officer and suggesting heirloom blade.
These and many of the swords illustrated in Wagner (1967)are in the Military History Museum in Prague, and when I checked with them on several back in the 1990s they were still there. Possibly thier staff might have more information.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your continued efforts to shed light on this sword. My photographs were not comprehensive and I apologise for giving the wrong impression re the pommel, it is stepped as this quick photo shows. The Prague connection seems worth pursuing and once I have taken some better photographs I will investigate that avenue further. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you.
Regards to All,
Norman.

Dear Sir!

I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now.
The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased.

This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries.

I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming
Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik)
Heeresgeschichtliches Museum
A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1
Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320
Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850
Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707

[Kubur]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to resuscitate this old thread, but I' m really excited to share with you some results that I got after some researches. A Pala was recently sold at a famous Italian auction house. I was intrigued by the script on the blade, it looked like Arab but it wasn't. It was clearly done by a non Arab speaker. Then I found this thread, but no more. Your so-called Austrian sword had the same kind of script on the blade. But the conclusion was that the blade was probably an Ottoman blade. I was still frustrated and finaly I found a pala almost identical but with an ivory grip. From this pala I traced a link with a sword at the Wallace Museum... with the same decorations and the same script.
Austria
1846
Steel, wood, turquoises, silver and gold, embossed, engraved and etched
Length: 93.5 cm
Weight: 0.76 kg, without scabbard
Hallmark: Vienna mark and '1846'
Inscription
OA1753
Oriental Armoury
My conclusion is now more simple and clear, I think all these swords, blades and hilts are Austrian copies of Ottoman palas. What do you think?
Best,
Kubur

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Kubur

What do you think?

Wish I had one...

[A.alnakkas]

There is the bit where one of the inscription is readable Arabic. Its likely a copy though as some bits are not done correctly.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Just a quick note. Thanks for your input re this unusual piece. What I have not said before is that there is clear evidence of the sword having been used, not abused, combatively i.e. small nicks on the edge where one may expect them and some small 'cuts' on the upper edge consistent with edge contact/parrying with another blade. I'm not sure about the date to the latter half of the 19thC I'm pretty sure the hilt pattern had changed by then. Thanks again for having a look. I would be interested if anyone could comment more on the make up of the blade re the obvious pattern, is it definitely a pattern welded blade?
My Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

In my oppinion it is a pattern welded blade very close to Turkish ribbon. Judging only from the photos I cannot be sure but anyhow would bet that is a Turkish made blade. However, it happened before that I lost a bet.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I'm still not absolutely sure either.!!! The history of animosity between these two empires is well documented and I still find it difficult to reconcile an Austrian officer sporting an Austrian made Ottoman style blade.

My Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
I have reread the correspondence from my reputable source and it is clear that they are sure that this is an Austrian made blade, probably mid 18thC, as apparently this emulation of Ottoman blade profile and decoration was in vogue at this time. I'm also happy to say that the type is not at all common and I suspect this rarity of form has been a big stumbling block in properly identifying this sword. Thanks once again to all who participated in this most interesting discussion.
Regards,
Norman.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I originally posted this sword on the Ethnographic Weapons page of Vikingsword Forum, as the previous owner had it marked down as a Turkish Generals Sword. Thanks to assistance from this posting we have now settled on the sword being western European with pseudo ottoman script.

Now that I have had more time to review this sword I can also provide a better description:
Western European Officer’ Mameluke. Hilt has an all in one brass backstrap and Pistol shaped pommel (without the usual hole in the pommel). Brass Ferrule with corded central decoration. Brass cross guard with Chain Guard. Grip decoratively carved bone. Curved single edged flat blade with shallow (9 ½” 24 cm) clip back point. Blade has a small decorative panel on each side containing pseudo ottoman script. Plain steel scabbard with two throat screws and two steel bands with hangers.

The swords dimensions are:
Overall Length: In Scabbard 35 ¼” 89.6 cm, sword only 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade length: 28 ¼” 71.8 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 ¾” 14.5 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm

I am still trying to identify whether the sword is Hungarian, French or English. I have been unable to find another example with this unusual style pf Pistol pommel/grip. On a previous post I did find a reference stating that “After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans”. Which certainly would seem to fit with this sword.

Cheers Cathey and Rex