Sirau and their use

[KuKulzA28]

With this siraui I have found that the most comfortable and natural feeling grip is a punching-knife type grip like a badik. In this case, it would be edge-up... which is not conventional in most places, but definitely not entirely 100% unheard of.

The conventional blade-up edge-out grip is do-able, but the blade curves far back, so that cutting with it conventionally in fighting is awkward (since edge is set angled far back). In an ice-pich sort of grip, the blade is also angled back so that stabbing and slashing seems a little awkward as it's about 45 degrees from the forearm, so pretty far from the more conventional vertical/perpendicular position from the bottom of the fist found on most generic knife design.

[fearn]

Kukulz

What happens if you try a curving slash with this blade? Something like throwing a frisbee, with the edge out, and not letting go of the sirau?

F

[chregu]

Hi
here is my piece of it.
think it belongs to the same genus.

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

Kukulz

What happens if you try a curving slash with this blade? Something like throwing a frisbee, with the edge out, and not letting go of the sirau?

F

Huh?

Do you mean pistol-grip, edge-up, except oriented horizontally so that if I am holding it in my right hand, I am going left to right?



BTW I've been informed that these are called Pisau Raut on Java and Pisau Wali in peninsular Malaysia?

[Lew]

Ok let us stop this complete speculation on how this knife is used. It is quite simple the blade is in upward position so that the natural momentum of the upward or straight thrust cuts into the victim to do the most damage. It's a thrusting dagger the same as the Moro gunong. Form follows function nothing else . The same reason you see certain types of military knives and bayonets with the cutting edge up it's simple physics.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lew

Ok let us stop this complete speculation on how this knife is used. It is quite simple the blade is in upward position so that the natural momentum of the upward or straight thrust cuts into the victim to do the most damage. It's a thrusting dagger the same as the Moro gunong. Form follows function nothing else . The same reason you see certain types of military knives and bayonets with the cutting edge up it's simple physics.

Well Lew, i think the biggest bit of speculation going on here is that this knife is intended to be used as a weapon at all. It is still my suspicion that this is primarily a work knife. The edge position might well be oriented to some specific work duty. I really can't say. But i also don't think we can apply any specific form of martial technique or grip to this blade either...

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

Well Lew, i think the biggest bit of speculation going on here is that this knife is intended to be used as a weapon at all. It is still my suspicion that this is primarily a work knife. The edge position might well be oriented to some specific work duty. I really can't say. But i also don't think we can apply any specific form of martial technique or grip to this blade either...

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

But then again there are two varieties of such knives.

[David]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being...

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being...

*sigh* ok, I see how it is. Allow me to repeat myself...
"Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand [...] It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber."

Utility? Sure, the siraui I have could whittle and shave material when gripped pistol grip edge up with index and thumb pinching the ricasso region. In a conventional grip and the thumb on the spine I can slice and carve with it. I guess another utilitarian function could be stabbing a pig, or cutting a chicken's neck... But it feels most comfortable for stabbing, similar to a badik. I don't know of any pistol-grip utility knife designs...

Please consider...

[1] Most pistol grip knives I've encountered are meant mainly for people-killing. This one also feels that way. I don't personally know a punching-style or pistol grip knife meant primarily for utility.

[2] Also consider that there seems to be 2 forms of this knife. In fact you brought this up earlier in the thread. There's the non-fullered 90 degree choil blade often with a longer and straighter grip and there's the variation with a fuller and gradual choil and a more curved pistol-grip like handle.

[3] Keris-like sheaths. I could be wrong but I feel, with a keris-like sheath, there is a certain status and weapon implication there (though keris were and are not primarily weapons anymore, right?).

[4] Being a smaller blade does not make it a non-weapon. Look at karambits, Chinese daggers, small bichwas & katars, Sgian dubh, etc. Sometimes it is the hidden weapon that is the most dangerous due to surprise and concealability.

That's why I think, based on the considerations and the ergonomics of the siraui right here next to me in my possession, that it feels more fighting oriented. I think my points and my sense of ergonomics are valid.



Yet, you feel that I'm wrong and question my ability to imagine a utility role for it. You seem positive that there is a utility role for this knife. Please explain why... I'm new to the world Sumatran blades and in any case always willing to learn. I got no issue with admitting when I'm wrong, but show me.

What makes you think it is definitely a utility blade first and foremost?

[A. G. Maisey]

This particular form of knife is a bit outside my experience, I've seen a few, and sold a few, but I really do not know what this particular form of Sumatran knife is used for.

However, there are knives in Jawa and Bali that are extremely similar to this knife form, and those Javanese and Balinese knives are work knives, mostly used for working rotan, I believe.Some years ago I knew a tukang wrongko who favoured this style of knife for detail work in the carving of wrongkos.In Bali they are used in the preparation of offerings.

In my experience, knives from the entire Indonesian area that are used as weapons have blade geometry that presents a grind on either side of the blade, knives that have a chisel grind, as this knife presently under discussion does, are work knives. In Jawa and Bali any work knife that must be kept sharp is kept in a scabbard, very often a scabbard that is suited to waist carry in belt, setagen, or sarung folds.

[David]

Well KuKulz, i'm sorry that my questions are driving you you deep sighs...
When you speak of your knife in hand, which one are you referring to, the one in post #31 or #26.
Mr. Maisey has just pretty much expressed why i am leaning towards utilitarian purpose so i won't repeat his words. Certainly any edged blade can be used to do harm, but i don't get that as the main purpose of most of these blades. The much larger grooved variety might be different.
I actually brought up the difference in the two "types" of siraui to question if these are not in fact two completely different knives with different names. The name game can get quite ridiculous at times, but one thing we know for sure is that established writers have not always gotten them exactly right at times.

[Sajen]

I think that David is correct when I handle my two pieces. Like I have written before I tend to say that my pieces are utility knifes.
But when I look to the second piece from Michael in post # 15 and the two from Charles in #19 it could be good possible that these ones was used as weapons.

[fearn]

I can't say anything for how people cut food in Indonesia, but I do know that my mother always cuts smaller vegetables with the edge held up and the thumb pushing the veggies onto the edge. I personally think it's a crazy way to work, but unlike me, she's never cut herself using a knife that way. Effectively, it turns her hand into an anvil-style clipper.

If you don't have a clean surface or a cutting board, processing food in hand makes a lot of sense. If someone wants to experiment with cutting veggies with a sirau, I'd suggest cutting celery or something similar, because it doesn't tend to break suddenly, like a carrot, so the edge won't suddenly jerk towards your thumb.

Best,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

Well KuKulz, i'm sorry that my questions are driving you you deep sighs...

It's only that you state a suspicion that it is not a fighting knife at all and provide no evidence or possible evidence for that. But then go on to imply I have no the capacity to imagine a utility role for it. Make a statement, back it up - that's all I'm saying. It doesn't make sense to me for you to take a stance, and then ask the opposing persepctive to come up with support for your arguement.

Originally Posted by David

When you speak of your knife in hand, which one are you referring to, the one in post #31 or #26.

for the past few posts, #31, my bad about the confusion.

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

I actually brought up the difference in the two "types" of siraui to question if these are not in fact two completely different knives with different names. The name game can get quite ridiculous at times, but one thing we know for sure is that established writers have not always gotten them exactly right at times.

From the people I have talked to it seems they are called the same thing. But it is true that writers have not always gotten it right and locals call it what they will, and such things can change with time too.

For this topic of the 2 forms, I think Sajen says it best:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I think that David is correct when I handle my two pieces. Like I have written before I tend to say that my pieces are utility knifes.
But when I look to the second piece from Michael in post # 15 and the two from Charles in #19 it could be good possible that these ones was used as weapons.

I agree.

Is anyone here in touch with weapon experts on Sumatra that could tell us if there is a naming difference? Or perhaps they are called the same thing but used differently?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In my experience, knives from the entire Indonesian area that are used as weapons have blade geometry that presents a grind on either side of the blade, knives that have a chisel grind, as this knife presently under discussion does, are work knives. .

The one I have in #31 doesn't have a chisel grind. It has an edge on both sides. Do the 90 degree choil, non-fullered variety have a chisel grind?

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, there are knives in Jawa and Bali that are extremely similar to this knife form, and those Javanese and Balinese knives are work knives, mostly used for working rotan, I believe.Some years ago I knew a tukang wrongko who favoured this style of knife for detail work in the carving of wrongkos.In Bali they are used in the preparation of offerings.

Originally Posted by fearn

I can't say anything for how people cut food in Indonesia, but I do know that my mother always cuts smaller vegetables with the edge held up and the thumb pushing the veggies onto the edge. I personally think it's a crazy way to work, but unlike me, she's never cut herself using a knife that way. Effectively, it turns her hand into an anvil-style clipper.

If you don't have a clean surface or a cutting board, processing food in hand makes a lot of sense. If someone wants to experiment with cutting veggies with a sirau, I'd suggest cutting celery or something similar, because it doesn't tend to break suddenly, like a carrot, so the edge won't suddenly jerk towards your thumb.

OK, now this makes sense. These do sound like non-combat purposes/ways to use this knife. That's it, I'm going to save up and get one made in Indonesia and test it out myself!

[harimauhk]

Now I see why Vinny had so many questions about the siraui! I have a Minangkabau one that is absolutely meant to be a weapon. The handle and sheath are beautifully carved and the blade is chased. Being a practitioner of Minang silat, it could absolutely be used as a weapon in either grip. I can see many ways it would integrate seamlessly in that manner.

I'd rather not get into specifics about use, but based on its size, I believe this kind of blade would possibly have been intended for srikandi (female warriors), a la Minang kerambit. The men would have preferred the sewar, tumbuk lada or keris. I can see how the larger ones could have been battlefield weapons, however. I have a very large modern Javanese one that again is absolutely intended for combat.

It could be used as a slasher or a stabber. It could also very well be used for utility. Cutting plants at their base with one with the edge up in forward/hammer grip would be much more natural than with the edge down.

North of Minangkabau, the Acehnese have long had their rencong, which is definitely all combat, so using an edge up or edge in fighting knife is not really unusual for the region.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by harimauhk

Now I see why Vinny had so many questions about the siraui! I have a Minangkabau one that is absolutely meant to be a weapon. The handle and sheath are beautifully carved and the blade is chased. Being a practitioner of Minang silat, it could absolutely be used as a weapon in either grip. I can see many ways it would integrate seamlessly in that manner.

Can wee see a picture from this one?

Regards,

Detlef

[harimauhk]

Unfortunately I have it in storage: it is a modern piece, but nicely done. I'll see if I can rescue it tomorrow.

[David]

Originally Posted by harimauhk

Unfortunately I have it in storage: it is a modern piece, but nicely done. I'll see if I can rescue it tomorrow.

I would also be interested in seeing it...of course, i am not sure what a modern version of this blade type can tell us about the original and traditional purpose of the knife. The Javanese siraui you have you say is a modern piece. What is the age on the Minangkubau piece. There is probably more to be learned from older versions that were made when blades were more likely to actually be used in a battle scenario than from any modern versions.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by David

I would also be interested in seeing it...of course, i am not sure what a modern version of this blade type can tell us about the original and traditional purpose of the knife. The Javanese siraui you have you say is a modern piece. What is the age on the Minangkubau piece. There is probably more to be learned from older versions that were made when blades were more likely to actually be used in a battle scenario than from any modern versions.

Also the ones that Lew and KuKulzA28 are trying out are smaller versions of this blade. That's probably the reason why they prefer another kind of grip. "Size matters" with knives and grips.

Michael

[harimauhk]

I agree that an older piece would tell us more about traditional use. From the dress of the Minang ones I have seen in this thread and my modern one, it seems highly unlikely they were meant to be simple farm or household tools.

I sent my silat guru in KL a message to see what he thinks of it: it's not something we've discussed (yet)!

[Nonoy Tan]

The Bisayans of the Philippines used a small knife called “Baia” also known as “Pisao.” It was used for cutting and thinning rattan strips. It was not a weapon. Reference to this tool can be found in Part 1 Book 3 of “Historia de las Islas e Indios Visayas” (1668) written by Francisco Alcina.

[harimauhk]

As with many blades throughout the Nusantara, it is entirely possible versions existed both for use and for combat. Knowing where Kuk's little Javanese piece was made (they only make weapons), it would have been a request from the silat community in Indonesia. I think this form was used both for weapons as well as utility knives, much like the golok, kerambit and celurit.

I picked up my siraui earlier and will take pictures when the sun is up.

[harimauhk]

Still waiting to hear back from my guru. The forge that made this siraui in West Sumatra also makes Minang kerambits: this leads me to believe they are commonly considered to be weapons there too.

[VVV]

Nice knife but it is much too small for this category.
The size of a (classic) Siraui should be almost like a bread knife.
Maybe the apples and oranges-syndrome of size etc. is the reason between the this confusion?

Michael

[Sajen]

Agree with Michael, it has the form of a siraui but is much to small. Here for comparison a picture from one of my ones in hand.

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Yes Detlef,

Yours is the regular size. It's more obvious with your picture than giving measurements like I did.

Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

Yes Detlef,

Yours is the regular size. It's more obvious with your picture than giving measurements like I did.

Michael

And like I hold it in my hand (I am left handed) is IMHO the only way to handle it.

Detlef

[harimauhk]

Yes, the siraui depicted in this thread are huge in comparison! Perhaps the smaller versions were originally meant for women a la Minang kerambit. I have yet to see an older one in this size though.

Due to the nature of the grip, it feels most comfortable in the positions I showed, but I think it could very well be used in any grip. My larger Javanese one is about 40 cm overall: I'll see if I can take some pics of it. It looks more like a kuku macan.

I am quite fond of this little knife either way.