Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

PenangsangII · 13th January 2012, 03:01 AM

Thank you again Alan for yet another enlightening interpretation of Jawanese history.

Yes, the definition of "honor" is varied depending from where you look at things. Since Ken Arok staged a coup d'etat against Kadiri, and continuous bloodshed of keris Mpu Gandring for the Singhasari throne, then Kadiri, then Majapahit right to Demak and Mataram. The list goes on and on till Diponegoro war.

But then, from what we have been told by history books, Majapahit and Demak (including Cirebon) shared one common value. That is acceptance towards outside Jawanese culture to flourish. In fact, many influential administrators during Majapahit and Demak were not Jawanese at all. Mataram till Amangkurat era however, whilst trying to exert its legitimacy, it had to create its own Jawanese identity to the point of creating a wider difference in terms of keris as compared to Cirebon, Sumatra and the rest of the archipelago. In these places, the keris culture has not changed much since Majapahit, or even since Singhasari era. This of course is only my personal observation.

A. G. Maisey · 13th January 2012, 04:04 AM

Just to clarify a point Penangsang:- what I write on these historical topics is never my interpretation, it is simply the repetition of what can be found in any number of books written by professional historians.

On the other hand, what I may write about keris is sometimes what I have been taught, sometimes from my own observations or reasoning and research.

It is certainly true that Majapahit and the coastal political entities were not reluctant to use the skills of foreigners, being situated close to trade routes, foreigners were seemingly never in short supply in the coastal settlements.

Mataram , however, was an inland kingdom. The rulers of Mataram were very much pre-occupied with trying to demonstrate their legitimacy, but I feel that they also would not have been reluctant to employ skilled foreigners, had these people been available.

However, perhaps it is best not to try to link these matters to keris style. Mataram was preceded by Pajang, Pajang by Demak, and these are all moderately sized keris.

Some of the keris that are attributed to the western parts of Jawa are quite large, others are of normal size; Tuban is North Coast, some of its keris are enormous, but others are normal size. My own feeling is that the variation in size is related to firstly, easier availability of material in coastal locations than in the hinterland, and secondly size related to social standing of the owner. Then there is the esoteric factor, as reflected in numeric values.

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13th January 2012, 03:01 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thank you again Alan for yet another enlightening interpretation of Jawanese history. Yes, the definition of "honor" is varied depending from where you look at things. Since Ken Arok staged a coup d'etat against Kadiri, and continuous bloodshed of keris Mpu Gandring for the Singhasari throne, then Kadiri, then Majapahit right to Demak and Mataram. The list goes on and on till Diponegoro war. But then, from what we have been told by history books, Majapahit and Demak (including Cirebon) shared one common value. That is acceptance towards outside Jawanese culture to flourish. In fact, many influential administrators during Majapahit and Demak were not Jawanese at all. Mataram till Amangkurat era however, whilst trying to exert its legitimacy, it had to create its own Jawanese identity to the point of creating a wider difference in terms of keris as compared to Cirebon, Sumatra and the rest of the archipelago. In these places, the keris culture has not changed much since Majapahit, or even since Singhasari era. This of course is only my personal observation.

13th January 2012, 04:04 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,135	Just to clarify a point Penangsang:- what I write on these historical topics is never my interpretation, it is simply the repetition of what can be found in any number of books written by professional historians. On the other hand, what I may write about keris is sometimes what I have been taught, sometimes from my own observations or reasoning and research. It is certainly true that Majapahit and the coastal political entities were not reluctant to use the skills of foreigners, being situated close to trade routes, foreigners were seemingly never in short supply in the coastal settlements. Mataram , however, was an inland kingdom. The rulers of Mataram were very much pre-occupied with trying to demonstrate their legitimacy, but I feel that they also would not have been reluctant to employ skilled foreigners, had these people been available. However, perhaps it is best not to try to link these matters to keris style. Mataram was preceded by Pajang, Pajang by Demak, and these are all moderately sized keris. Some of the keris that are attributed to the western parts of Jawa are quite large, others are of normal size; Tuban is North Coast, some of its keris are enormous, but others are normal size. My own feeling is that the variation in size is related to firstly, easier availability of material in coastal locations than in the hinterland, and secondly size related to social standing of the owner. Then there is the esoteric factor, as reflected in numeric values.