Non-Moro Filipino Kris Swords

VVV · 21st December 2011, 08:42 PM

Now and then, even if they seem to be quite rare, we encounter non-Moro Filipino kris swords. Unlike some of the Moro swords made of broken kris these swords does not look (to me anyway) as if they originally were Moro kris. Size-wise they are much longer than a cut down Moro kris and also at the gangya-region they seem to differ.

Do they come from Visayan immigrants to Mindanao?
Or was the kris sword tradition still active in the Visayas?
Any other relevant reference swords (not the more common Luzon kris knives), ideas or comments?

Michael

PS The lower kris is the "average" blade length of a late 19th/early 20th C Moro kris.

Sajen · 21st December 2011, 10:46 PM

Hello Michael,

the two big ones are really beautiful and remember me to the shown examples in the Macau Museum of Art display from 2006.
The small one seems to be recarved at the gandhik area.

I don't think that this one matching with the two others.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 21st December 2011, 10:52 PM

Yes there was a lot of trade between the Visayas and Mindanao, blades included. The top 2 have Visayan scabbards (and the top one a Panay hilt? - hard for me to see clearly).

There are these and then the Ilocano wavy blades that are different (middle one on the Macao exhibit picture).

These 2 areas seem to have wavy blades outside of the Moro and lumad lands.

kai · 21st December 2011, 11:12 PM

Hello Michael,

Nice examples!

I agree that the top 2 are Visayan with locally forged blades. I do feel that these fall short of a kris/keris definition and, thus, wouldn't call them kris swords (even though their design was likely based on Moro kris).

The lower one doesn't look Visayan to me. Based on the weird gangya scroll work, could this more likely be a Lumad piece?

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 22nd December 2011, 03:55 PM

Thanks x 3,

I think my top sword resembles the Ilocano from Macao?
Even if the hilt and the scabbard is different the crosspiece and the blade seems to be related?
On the odd lower one, how do you know it is Lumad?
At least the scabbard is resembling the Visayan style?

Michael

PS Here is another shot of the hilt.

VANDOO · 22nd December 2011, 09:17 PM

USING THE SEARCH IN ARCHIVES, LOOK FOR "KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS" BY VANDOO POSTED 01-19-2004. THERE ARE PICTURES THERE OF A KERIS SAID TO BE OF VISIAN ORIGIN. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO A LINK OR I WOULD.

Sajen · 22nd December 2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

USING THE SEARCH IN ARCHIVES, LOOK FOR "KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS" BY VANDOO POSTED 01-19-2004. THERE ARE PICTURES THERE OF A KERIS SAID TO BE OF VISIAN ORIGIN. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO A LINK OR I WOULD.

Hi Barry,

I think it is this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001969.html

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 23rd December 2011, 01:40 AM

VVV thanks for the upclose picture. I will say not Ilocano but Visayan for sure. The work on the hilt and the scabbard are signs of Visayan work. The blade is a little unusual I'll admit.

The bottom one I have seen before. Lumad pieces may mimic Moro hilts to a point but the blade I think is what is different. Especially the front of the ganga area. I am not saying that this is Lumad for sure, but it is not typical Moro either. Lumad pieces lend themselves to alterations more than Moro pieces it seems.

I know that the example in the old link is either Visayan or Visayan altered because of the scabbard and the unusual form of hilt. But was it a Moro trade piece? Don't know. Is yours Visayan? - hard to tell in the lack of more examples. Visayan altered? - that much is for sure.

The kris in the middle does look like a Moro blade that may have been modified. Again nothing is in stone here.

VVV · 23rd December 2011, 01:46 PM

Thanks Barry and Detlef for the interesting link. The first kris resembles my smallest in dress.
Jose, on the blade of the middle sword I agree that it resembles a Moro kris. But the size talks against it. The blade only is 26 1/4" (67 cm). If it once had a gangya too then the blade would have been maybe 29" (74 cm) which is much longer than the blade of a Moro kris. Even in this mount I find it a bit too long for optimal handling...

Michael

VVV · 26th December 2011, 10:14 AM

I received a private mail from one of the ex-members specializing in Filipino blades that were active in the linked thread from the old forum. He told me that all three of my kris come from Panay. He also shared some pictures of reference swords that resembled mine that also were made in different parts of Panay, both blades and dress. Some of them had similar gangya like the bottom kris.

Michael

Battara · 26th December 2011, 03:05 PM

I see what you mean about the second sword - took a better look at the link. Does not shock me that they are from Panay, especially the first one. Ilocanos did not generally make such hilts.

MaharlikaTimawa · 23rd February 2017, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Now and then, even if they seem to be quite rare, we encounter non-Moro Filipino kris swords. Unlike some of the Moro swords made of broken kris these swords does not look (to me anyway) as if they originally were Moro kris. Size-wise they are much longer than a cut down Moro kris and also at the gangya-region they seem to differ.

Do they come from Visayan immigrants to Mindanao?
Or was the kris sword tradition still active in the Visayas?
Any other relevant reference swords (not the more common Luzon kris knives), ideas or comments?

Michael

PS The lower kris is the "average" blade length of a late 19th/early 20th C Moro kris.

Could you post the measurements of the blades from top to bottom

Thanks in advanced

- Brandon

21st December 2011, 08:42 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Non-Moro Filipino Kris Swords Now and then, even if they seem to be quite rare, we encounter non-Moro Filipino kris swords. Unlike some of the Moro swords made of broken kris these swords does not look (to me anyway) as if they originally were Moro kris. Size-wise they are much longer than a cut down Moro kris and also at the gangya-region they seem to differ. Do they come from Visayan immigrants to Mindanao? Or was the kris sword tradition still active in the Visayas? Any other relevant reference swords (not the more common Luzon kris knives), ideas or comments? Michael PS The lower kris is the "average" blade length of a late 19th/early 20th C Moro kris. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 21st December 2011 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Added PS

21st December 2011, 10:46 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Michael, the two big ones are really beautiful and remember me to the shown examples in the Macau Museum of Art display from 2006. The small one seems to be recarved at the gandhik area. I don't think that this one matching with the two others. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

22nd December 2011, 03:55 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks x 3, I think my top sword resembles the Ilocano from Macao? Even if the hilt and the scabbard is different the crosspiece and the blade seems to be related? On the odd lower one, how do you know it is Lumad? At least the scabbard is resembling the Visayan style? Michael PS Here is another shot of the hilt. Attached Images

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21st December 2011, 10:52 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Yes there was a lot of trade between the Visayas and Mindanao, blades included. The top 2 have Visayan scabbards (and the top one a Panay hilt? - hard for me to see clearly). There are these and then the Ilocano wavy blades that are different (middle one on the Macao exhibit picture). These 2 areas seem to have wavy blades outside of the Moro and lumad lands.

21st December 2011, 11:12 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Michael, Nice examples! I agree that the top 2 are Visayan with locally forged blades. I do feel that these fall short of a kris/keris definition and, thus, wouldn't call them kris swords (even though their design was likely based on Moro kris). The lower one doesn't look Visayan to me. Based on the weird gangya scroll work, could this more likely be a Lumad piece? Regards, Kai

22nd December 2011, 09:17 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	USING THE SEARCH IN ARCHIVES, LOOK FOR "KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS" BY VANDOO POSTED 01-19-2004. THERE ARE PICTURES THERE OF A KERIS SAID TO BE OF VISIAN ORIGIN. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO A LINK OR I WOULD.

23rd December 2011, 01:40 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	VVV thanks for the upclose picture. I will say not Ilocano but Visayan for sure. The work on the hilt and the scabbard are signs of Visayan work. The blade is a little unusual I'll admit. The bottom one I have seen before. Lumad pieces may mimic Moro hilts to a point but the blade I think is what is different. Especially the front of the ganga area. I am not saying that this is Lumad for sure, but it is not typical Moro either. Lumad pieces lend themselves to alterations more than Moro pieces it seems. I know that the example in the old link is either Visayan or Visayan altered because of the scabbard and the unusual form of hilt. But was it a Moro trade piece? Don't know. Is yours Visayan? - hard to tell in the lack of more examples. Visayan altered? - that much is for sure. The kris in the middle does look like a Moro blade that may have been modified. Again nothing is in stone here.

23rd December 2011, 01:46 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Barry and Detlef for the interesting link. The first kris resembles my smallest in dress. Jose, on the blade of the middle sword I agree that it resembles a Moro kris. But the size talks against it. The blade only is 26 1/4" (67 cm). If it once had a gangya too then the blade would have been maybe 29" (74 cm) which is much longer than the blade of a Moro kris. Even in this mount I find it a bit too long for optimal handling... Michael

26th December 2011, 10:14 AM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I received a private mail from one of the ex-members specializing in Filipino blades that were active in the linked thread from the old forum. He told me that all three of my kris come from Panay. He also shared some pictures of reference swords that resembled mine that also were made in different parts of Panay, both blades and dress. Some of them had similar gangya like the bottom kris. Michael

26th December 2011, 03:05 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I see what you mean about the second sword - took a better look at the link. Does not shock me that they are from Panay, especially the first one. Ilocanos did not generally make such hilts.