Interesting tribal metalwork vessel for ID (OT)

Atlantia · 1st September 2011, 09:37 PM

Sorry to stray from the subject gentlemen, I've been trying to ID this interesting 'pouring bowl' without any success.
I bought it because the animal themes reminded me of weapon decoration, but I can't seem to pin it down.
Does anyone recognise the work?

Thank you
Gene

colin henshaw · 2nd September 2011, 09:00 AM

Hi Gene

I don't really have much idea - but I'll have a go. It looks like tinned copper, which makes me think of the Indian sub-continent. Not Islamic, so maybe from one of the tribal groupings in India or nearby ? Some sort of pouring/ritualistic vessel, maybe for water or wine ?

Regards.

Atlantia · 2nd September 2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi Gene

I don't really have much idea - but I'll have a go. It looks like tinned copper, which makes me think of the Indian sub-continent. Not Islamic, so maybe from one of the tribal groupings in India or nearby ? Some sort of pouring/ritualistic vessel, maybe for water or wine ?

Regards.

Hi Colin,

Thanks for the help. I think its silver rather than tin.
I agree that it doesn't look Islamic, as you say Indian is definately possible, but I don't recognise the form or decoration.

Best
Gene

colin henshaw · 2nd September 2011, 08:49 PM

Looking at it again - the interior base is worn, so something has been mixed/ ground there over a period of time. What about a utensil for preparing "paan" ? This is a leaf wrapped over various ingredients used in betel chewing with lime and so on... (throughout South East Asia).

What's the dimensions ?

Regards
Colin

Atlantia · 3rd September 2011, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Looking at it again - the interior base is worn, so something has been mixed/ ground there over a period of time. What about a utensil for preparing "paan" ? This is a leaf wrapped over various ingredients used in betel chewing with lime and so on... (throughout South East Asia).

What's the dimensions ?

Regards
Colin

Hi Colin,

19.5cm long including terminals. 11cm wide. 5.25 tall to highest point. Quite a heavy 408.8g.
Would preparing paan involve pouring the juice off?

Best
Gene

Lew · 3rd September 2011, 12:46 AM

Seems like the spout side is a turtle the other a pig. So you should search for themes under folklore .

Atlantia · 3rd September 2011, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Seems like the spout side is a turtle the other a pig. So you should search for themes under folklore .

Good idea!
(off to google)

kahnjar1 · 3rd September 2011, 01:13 AM

Moses was found in one just like this

Berkley · 3rd September 2011, 04:00 AM

Reminds me of Maya turtle symbols I've seen. Cast silver is common in Mexico.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd September 2011, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Sorry to stray from the subject gentlemen, I've been trying to ID this interesting 'pouring bowl' without any success.
I bought it because the animal themes reminded me of weapon decoration, but I can't seem to pin it down.
Does anyone recognise the work?

Thank you
Gene

Looks like a holed turtle headed (shell inverted and apparently geometric possibly six/seven sided ) four flippered tinned and planished brass begging bowl... with a holed pigs head at the other end. Holed animal heads possibly to support a chain so that the begging bowl can be slung around the beggars neck? Some wear to the inner bowls base caused by ruppees being dropped in..Not for food...but for money. Indian 150 years old. Does my letter win the 5 quid?

Tim Simmons · 3rd September 2011, 09:02 PM

Looks like an oil lamp to me. The wick is held in the mouth. My first thoughts on origin was India. It could easily be African too. The other head could be seen as Fon representation of a lion as in many silver washed brass recade. There does also appear to be turtle elements to the design. The turtle is a common West African symbol and many mythical creatures from Benin are chimera. I will add soon pics.

Tim Simmons · 3rd September 2011, 09:26 PM

If you search the archive you might find "Fon Recade" information. I have this West African turtle totem. Leather covered wood, cowrie shell eyes and woven grass. I have another beaded turtle but it is unfindable at the moment.

Atlantia · 4th September 2011, 01:16 PM

Good work chaps.
Thanks you all.
I've been googling and not found anything the same.....
All suggestions seem to have merit! I'm more confused now I think

David · 4th September 2011, 04:05 PM

Gene, i'm sorry to be such a stick in the mud here, but i'm afraid that your confusion will probably continue and the exact origin will probably not ever be discovered unless you get lucky enough to find a very similar example that has certain provenance. Just about ALL cultures use animal imagery and turtles and pigs (as well as dozens of other animals) are pretty pervasive across the entire world. Artisans are also a fanciful bunch and will use animals in their imagery that are not even local to their culture. Just look at the British Lion that became so common in their heraldry in the Middle Ages, but the lion had been extinct in England for about 13,000 years.
I'm afraid that all we can do about this for now is guess...

Atlantia · 6th September 2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Gene, i'm sorry to be such a stick in the mud here, but i'm afraid that your confusion will probably continue and the exact origin will probably not ever be discovered unless you get lucky enough to find a very similar example that has certain provenance. Just about ALL cultures use animal imagery and turtles and pigs (as well as dozens of other animals) are pretty pervasive across the entire world. Artisans are also a fanciful bunch and will use animals in their imagery that are not even local to their culture. Just look at the British Lion that became so common in their heraldry in the Middle Ages, but the lion had been extinct in England for about 13,000 years.
I'm afraid that all we can do about this for now is guess...

Frustrating but true mate!

Best
Gene

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th September 2011, 07:32 AM

Salaams,

I made an interesting discovery whilst looking through The Metropolitan Museum oif Arts book by Stuart Cary Welch INDIA Art and Culture 1300 to 1900 page 106 . Your dish thing is likely to be for food or drinks for the gods~ Quote . " Bronze animals have been excavated from bronze age sites in India etc etc . As with so many Indian artefacts the lines are blurred between the secular and the relgious." The book asks were these animal forms playthings for children, offerings for a shrine or manifestations or avatar for the gods Vishnu or Varaha, the Boar in whose form he slew the demon Hiranyaksha ? Or more than likely all three ! Thus ending your confusion with a great piece of ethnographic information on the dish or "offering bowl"...and with some material and spiritual culture.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

1st September 2011, 09:37 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting tribal metalwork vessel for ID (OT) Sorry to stray from the subject gentlemen, I've been trying to ID this interesting 'pouring bowl' without any success. I bought it because the animal themes reminded me of weapon decoration, but I can't seem to pin it down. Does anyone recognise the work? Thank you Gene Attached Images

3rd September 2011, 09:26 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If you search the archive you might find "Fon Recade" information. I have this West African turtle totem. Leather covered wood, cowrie shell eyes and woven grass. I have another beaded turtle but it is unfindable at the moment. Attached Images

18th September 2011, 07:32 AM	#16
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Confusion ended ! Wild Boar... !! Salaams, I made an interesting discovery whilst looking through The Metropolitan Museum oif Arts book by Stuart Cary Welch INDIA Art and Culture 1300 to 1900 page 106 . Your dish thing is likely to be for food or drinks for the gods~ Quote . " Bronze animals have been excavated from bronze age sites in India etc etc . As with so many Indian artefacts the lines are blurred between the secular and the relgious." The book asks were these animal forms playthings for children, offerings for a shrine or manifestations or avatar for the gods Vishnu or Varaha, the Boar in whose form he slew the demon Hiranyaksha ? Or more than likely all three ! Thus ending your confusion with a great piece of ethnographic information on the dish or "offering bowl"...and with some material and spiritual culture. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

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2nd September 2011, 09:00 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Gene I don't really have much idea - but I'll have a go. It looks like tinned copper, which makes me think of the Indian sub-continent. Not Islamic, so maybe from one of the tribal groupings in India or nearby ? Some sort of pouring/ritualistic vessel, maybe for water or wine ? Regards.

2nd September 2011, 08:49 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Looking at it again - the interior base is worn, so something has been mixed/ ground there over a period of time. What about a utensil for preparing "paan" ? This is a leaf wrapped over various ingredients used in betel chewing with lime and so on... (throughout South East Asia). What's the dimensions ? Regards Colin

3rd September 2011, 12:46 AM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Seems like the spout side is a turtle the other a pig. So you should search for themes under folklore .

3rd September 2011, 01:13 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Moses was found in one just like this

3rd September 2011, 04:00 AM	#9
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Reminds me of Maya turtle symbols I've seen. Cast silver is common in Mexico.

3rd September 2011, 09:02 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks like an oil lamp to me. The wick is held in the mouth. My first thoughts on origin was India. It could easily be African too. The other head could be seen as Fon representation of a lion as in many silver washed brass recade. There does also appear to be turtle elements to the design. The turtle is a common West African symbol and many mythical creatures from Benin are chimera. I will add soon pics.

4th September 2011, 01:16 PM	#13
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Good work chaps. Thanks you all. I've been googling and not found anything the same..... All suggestions seem to have merit! I'm more confused now I think

4th September 2011, 04:05 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Gene, i'm sorry to be such a stick in the mud here, but i'm afraid that your confusion will probably continue and the exact origin will probably not ever be discovered unless you get lucky enough to find a very similar example that has certain provenance. Just about ALL cultures use animal imagery and turtles and pigs (as well as dozens of other animals) are pretty pervasive across the entire world. Artisans are also a fanciful bunch and will use animals in their imagery that are not even local to their culture. Just look at the British Lion that became so common in their heraldry in the Middle Ages, but the lion had been extinct in England for about 13,000 years. I'm afraid that all we can do about this for now is guess...