Unusual grip solution on a klewang

[VVV]

Here is a probably Sumatran (Jambi?) klewang with, for me at least, a unique feature - a trigger-resembling resting place for the index finger.
It feels very comfortable when using it.
Are there any similar solutions in swords from other regions?
I can't recall that I have seen it in any other swords from the Malay archipelago.

Michael

[Battara]

Well that's different.

I can see better grip, but limited in movement with the wrist.

[asomotif]

Wow. pretty unique feature.

I have never seen anything similar which is so clearly additional grip for one hand use. (on ethnographic weapons that is. On new fantasy knives it looks more like a standard to have such protrusions )

I can see better grip, but limited in movement with the wrist.

Maybe this is more a tool than a weapon and therefore comfort was more important than free movement...?

Best regards,
Willem

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Battara

Well that's different.

I can see better grip, but limited in movement with the wrist.

How is this limiting Battara?

A very interesting piece Michael.

[Battara]

Hard to describe in writing. The finger hold would catch when making some wrist movements with this piece. Not saying that it would be impossible to use, just a little limiting. However, I am not as familiar with Indonesian silat forms as I am with Filipino forms.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Battara

Hard to describe in writing. The finger hold would catch when making some wrist movements with this piece. Not saying that it would be impossible to use, just a little limiting. However, I am not as familiar with Indonesian silat forms as I am with Filipino forms.

I beg to differ, when looking at biomechanics, I do not think it will have any effect on wrist movement at all.
Put on a thick chunky ring on your forefinger if you like (for effect ) and grab a guardless sword off the wall. Grip your fist tight around the hilt and rotate your wrist at every possible extreme angle and you'll see your fingers do not move at all, I don't understand what it could catch on?

I do think it is an ingenious addition that offers a sort of a rest function.

As these pieces were not always a weapon but doubled as a weapon and a machete, I know if I was holding it and chopping for hours whilst beating down new path in the jungles, my hand, wrist and forearm would want a break now and then between stikes.
I feel the ring hook offers at any point in time, a relaxed grip with the natural position of the forefinger, thumb and gravity allowing it to be held loosely in your hand and not falling to the ground.
Certainly in combat too, like hollywood movies, persons have dropped blades due to hard and well placed stikes, having this catch point where it is offers some chance of instant recovery rather than dropping the piece.

""I might add too, that in relation to a sweating hand and having this hook in place, it always keeps the hand in the correct place on the hilt in relation to the cutting edge.""

My $1.95.

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

I beg to differ, when looking at biomechanics, I do not think it will have any effect on wrist movement at all.
Put on a thick chunky ring on your forefinger if you like (for effect ) and grab a guardless sword off the wall. Grip your fist tight around the hilt and rotate your wrist at every possible extreme angle and you'll see your fingers do not move at all, I don't understand what it could catch on?

I do think it is an ingenious addition that offers a sort of a rest function.

As these pieces were not always a weapon but doubled as a weapon and a machete, I know if I was holding it and chopping for hours whilst beating down new path in the jungles, my hand, wrist and forearm would want a break now and then between stikes.
I feel the ring hook offers at any point in time, a relaxed grip with the natural position of the forefinger, thumb and gravity allowing it to be held loosely in your hand and not falling to the ground.
Certainly in combat too, like hollywood movies, persons have dropped blades due to hard and well placed stikes, having this catch point where it is offers some chance of instant recovery rather than dropping the piece.

""I might add too, that in relation to a sweating hand and having this hook in place, it always keeps the hand in the correct place on the hilt in relation to the cutting edge.""

My $1.95.

Gav

What he said...
I don't think this finger hook would be limiting at all and in fact it would give you more control of the blade...

[ThePepperSkull]

When comparing FMA to Indonesian silat, many forms and movements are similar (I see many similarities in the footwork. Though the noticable difference is the european influence in FMA footwork. Triangle movements are a major similarity between FMA and Indonesian Silat however), but as a practitioner of both I would say a major difference would be movement of the blade in-hand.

In this respect I think Jose is correct. Those of us who practice FMA knows that it involves a lot of rapid movements and slashes involving deceptive redirections in order to 'fake-out' your opponent. When the checking hand is involved, there is more of a necessity to control and manipulate the swing of the bladed hand as well in order to avoid cutting one's own hand. In these aspects, the trigger-like guard may hinder or provide discomfort to the practitioner who likes to use such movements.

As a practitioner of Mande Muda Silat, however, I would say that this would be an acceptable design feaure in terms of movement, which in general involves 'larger' and more sweeping slashes in comparison to filipino martial arts.

[tom hyle]

PS I love that outline forged integral bolster!

[Battara]

The Pepperskull, that is helpful. I was not as sure about the silat forms and if what you say is true then this would make sense of having the hook on the hilt. I would only wonder why this was not common on these, but it would be helpful for longer slashing movements.

[fearn]

Neat piece!

A couple of observations:

The first is that this blade may have been made for someone who was missing some fingers or parts of fingers. It would make it easier to retain the blade (a good thing), and make it easier to swing around the index finger or whatever was left of it.

The second is that if the blade has any scarring, it would tell us what it was used for. Marks from agricultural work look a bit different than parries on blades. Similarly, there may be scars on that hook that will elucidate what it was used for.

Best,

F

[Maurice]

Maybe this "fingerhook" isn't a fingerhook at all??
It could be some kind of hook to prevent that an attack with an opponents blade (parried with the edge of Michael's weapon) ends up in the fingerzone whoever held Michael's sword....(like the protrusions of a "sai" or "sikoe-sikoe", but than smaller)...

I wouldn't hold my finger above this hook when being in a bladefight.
My fingers would be behind this protrusion, and I would try to parry all attacks with the edge of the blade....
But on the image I can't see if there is enough space to hold the handle behind this hook with the whole hand...

Maurice

[VVV]

Thanks all for your comments.
It doesn't seem like there is another one like it in other regions based on the answers?
Here are my comments on your feedback and ideas:
For me - with a blade training in Visayan FMA (Pekiti-Tirsia), Sundanese and Maduranese IMA (Kuntao Silat de Thouars) - it doesn't restrict my wrist movements at all. When I do long range striking and twirling movements (FMA) I just have a regular grip (not really using the advantage of the finger rest). When doing broken strikes without thinking about it I just positioned my thumb along the back of the blade for more comfort. If it would have had a better point it would feel natural to alternate thrusts and strikes in bridging short circular combinations when in this range. When I compare it to resembling klewang I feel that its strength is in mid-range fighting with broken strikes. This is contrary to Pepperskull's and Jose's ideas but they do not have the advantage like me to try it out live, feel the balance etc. Probably you would change your mind about this if you actually had the blade in your hands.
I don't understand why it would hinder the second hand?
The only style of fighting that doesn't feel good with this protrusion is the chopping, jerking motion used in the Sundanese sugarcane fighting that Uncle Bill teaches (in case any of you have seen his characteristic stick fighting?).
Fearn, I don't get this idea of missing fingers? Unless you miss your index finger and use it as a guard. It's not very balanced or comfortable in only a pinch grip (thumb + index finger). There are no signs of deep cuts or scars on the hook or blade. Based on the tip I don't think that it was supposed to only be used as a tool, but I don't have much farming experience...
Interesting idea with the siku-siku parry function, Maurice. But you really have to have extremely small hands to be able to grip it behind the protrusion. Also it is not balanced when holding it in that grip.

Michael

[CharlesS]

Fascinating innovation...in a way I am surprised we don't see more of this.

[A.alnakkas]

I really dont see how the hook is combat efficient. If its for use maybe as machete then yes it will be comfy. But for combat? am not so sure since it wont add the protection of a crossguard and placing finger over it is dangerous.

Otherwise, it sure looks attractive!

[fearn]

Thanks Michael,

Good idea shot down, oh well. I'd guessed that it might work better in a pinch grip, or for someone missing part of their index finger. If it's not comfortable when held that way, then it's not.

F

[ThePepperSkull]

Thanks for the input, Michael.

I agree somewhat with you. Wrist movement should not be hindered, my intention was to articulate that FMA movements with this blade would hurt the index/middle finger some. Of course, I do not have this to handle so I defer to your judgement on this. Either way, I really like the look of this klewang. Very interesting!


Also, on second thought, this feature reminds me of a Subhilt bowie. The subhilt's secondary guard feature reminds me of the unique finger protrusion of this blade. I know that on a subhilt bowie, it helps with edge alignment in slashing in addition to hindering slippage from the hand -- Do you feel that this would be the same on your klewang,Michael?

[tom hyle]

Also, there is a close resemblance to some Philipino (Batangas?) espadas that have an actual ring for the forefinger.

[mohd]

Originally Posted by VVV

Here is a probably Sumatran (Jambi?) klewang with, for me at least, a unique feature - a trigger-resembling resting place for the index finger.
It feels very comfortable when using it.
Are there any similar solutions in swords from other regions?
I can't recall that I have seen it in any other swords from the Malay archipelago.

Michael

Beautiful Klewang, Michael!
The blade has a nice flow!
Anyhow IMVHO the unique feature is not meant for index finger resting place but just a uniquely shaped single guard.
We Malays generally have small hand which also means small grip.
So placing index finger at the front of the rather large guard is uncomfortable and in fact it might inflict pain and a sure cause for blisters in between of the index finger and the middle finger.
Malay fighter (i.e. Pendekar) or warrior (i.e. Panglima) or farmer (i.e. Petani) just never use glove

mohd

[VVV]

Thanks for the added input.
PepperSkull, I have not tried a sub-hilt bowie, mostly I am playing around with Indonesian and Filipino blades and I find it hard to simulate it, not having anyone around.
Usually I place the finger along the blade when in the hammer grip position for better thrust aiming/blade alignment and close it if expected heavy resistance on impact, like when thrusting tree trunks for grip practice. But for really heavy knives maybe the sub-hilt solution is better?
Mohd, actually I am about the same size as Alam Shah (on the forum) but my hands are maybe slightly larger. If I hold it behind the protrusion it only fits close to 2,5 of my fingers! When I have the index finger on the protrusion it's only the little finger that is resting on the pommel.
I never use a glove for training except when full contact sparring. This is not a golf forum.

Michael

[VVV]

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks for the added input.
PepperSkull, I have not tried a sub-hilt bowie, mostly I am playing around with Indonesian and Filipino blades and I find it hard to simulate it, not having anyone around.
Usually I place the finger along the blade when in the hammer grip position for better thrust aiming/blade alignment and close it if expected heavy resistance on impact, like when thrusting tree trunks for grip practice. But for really heavy knives maybe the sub-hilt solution is better?
Mohd, actually I am about the same size as Alam Shah (on the forum) but my hands are maybe slightly larger. If I hold it behind the protrusion it only fits close to 2,5 of my fingers! When I have the index finger on the protrusion it's only the little finger that is resting on the pommel.
I never use a glove for training except when full contact sparring. This is not a golf forum.

Michael

PS One of my Silat practice friends is quite small, smaller than most of his Indonesian and Malaysian instructors actually, and I will check if he can use it behind the "thing". Unfortunately he lives in Norway and will first be over here in September so it will take a while but I will let you know.

[mohd]

Thanks for the explanation Michael
Actually I'm not an MA practitioner thuogh
I just give my two cents base on my experience handling that sort of blade in agricultural usage
It just looks like a minor disturbance to freely manoeuver my handgrip to the handle!
Anyhow, it's just the one in my mental vision and it's not the actual practical experience while holding the handle of the klewang in person

mohd

[VVV]

Thanks Mohd,

I agree that for farming this innovation probably isn't a good idea.
It's a pity we can't all meet live instead so we can try out and handle the weapons we discuss...

Michael

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Also, there is a close resemblance to some Philipino (Batangas?) espadas that have an actual ring for the forefinger.

I say "also" because I had provided a list of resemblances, which I did not know was lost in the works or something; my posts are delayed, so I don't know if they've gone through properly etc. until "later"......
Primarily I feel it resembles the feature on a pinegas (Luzon highlander head hunting axe) that I call the "finger" the projection which gives fine control over those round often tapered handles.
But there are many other similar features on the world's weapons.
Coming instantly to mind are pas d'an on European swords and the pinky-pull indention on Turkish knives (etc. to include tulwar).