Interesting North African, Berber? swords

[Andy Stevens]

Hello folks
We thought we'd show off these two old warhorses as they seem not to fall into any well represented or recognised catagory of North African sword. Our initial thoughts suggested a Tuareg origin, mostly based on Anthony Tirri's comments in his books which show similar weapons with said Tuareg affiliations but the differences in style and feel, to us now suggest otherwise.

The longer weapon has a European sabre blade,the hilt, guard and pommel are made from horn. Overall length 108cm

The shorter sword has a crudely made native blade, but still holds a sharp edge and would have been effective enough when used to slash. The hilt etc are wood and of a chunkier construction. The accompanying scabbard is a real gem, and although showing obvious age, wear and tear, would we feel looked very impressive when new, especially the inset carpet like central section. Overall length 79cm

The question we ask is simple; where are these interesting pieces from? It has recently been suggest to us that they may be of Berber origin, and Tunisia could be a likely point of origin? As ever we offer thanks in advance for all replies. We can post more pictures if needed.

[tom hyle]

very cool examples of swords dressed without benefit of a metal worker.
The handguard resembles that of a kampilan more than anything, but still I'm guessing N African might be correct.....cool swords.

[Iain]

Martin Lubojacky IDed these as being Tunisian in this thread:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...martin+tunisia

I have seen several pop up over the years. Almost invariably with European sabre blades, but occasionally with straight blades as well. Usually reasonably old.

[Andy Stevens]

Hi Tom, we can see where're you going with the Kampilan notion, the hilt does have a similar look, and as you say these are pretty funky things

Iain, do you have any idea as to which tribal groups used this type of sword? Have you ever seen the carpet type decoration on other scabbards? Perhaps this could suggest a certain region or people? Just a thort

[Iain]

Sadly I have little information beyond what's in that thread. They most often turn up in French collections, but that is fairly normal given the colonial connections. Beyond the rather generic term Berber I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

very cool examples of swords dressed without benefit of a metal worker.
The handguard resembles that of a kampilan more than anything, but still I'm guessing N African might be correct.....cool swords.

Good guess on N African, the Berber attribution suggested in the original post inspires......only resemblance to a kampilan though is that the hilt is carved wood.

[tom hyle]

No, that is not the only resemblance to a kampilan.
I was, in fact, considering the wooden/horn crossguard, and particularly the way its ends curve up, toward the pommel as resembling the crossguard on kampilan.
It also resembles a feature common on Chinese hilts (jian style), and I spent a bit overnite wondering if they might be Uighur etc. Chinese influenced swords.
The Tunisia ID seems correct though.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hello,

Since Iain cited me, I should, maybe, add: My knowledge is only based on the following experience: As far as south Mediterranean coast is concerned I raked antique shops and markets in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt some time ago, and I saw (old) swords with this hilts in Tunisia (Djerba) only. I think it does not mean they are comming from Djerba (main Tunisian antique vendors are, in fact, a few big families, but their members are located "everywhere" and they move the goods in accordance with need), I just saw them there (and I have never been to Algeria or Morocco, so this research is not complete). By the way, you can find this "insert carpit like central sections" on Bu Saadi daggers´sheaths relatively often, too.

Regards,
Martin

[Iain]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for jumping in. I think even your somewhat limited experience with this sword type is extremely valuable as previously there was almost no data on them. I think it is fairly safe to say they are found on the N. African coast and from that Berber seems the most applicable, if generic, label to use.

I would be surprised if they are encountered in Morocco given the fairly strong base of knowledge for weapons in that region and the fact that blades of this type are also encountered in nimcha mounts.

Cheers,

Iain

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

No, that is not the only resemblance to a kampilan.
I was, in fact, considering the wooden/horn crossguard, and particularly the way its ends curve up, toward the pommel as resembling the crossguard on kampilan.
It also resembles a feature common on Chinese hilts (jian style), and I spent a bit overnite wondering if they might be Uighur etc. Chinese influenced swords.
The Tunisia ID seems correct though.

Actually in perspective that is a fairly placed note in the comparison, and when considering the commonality of the crossguard shape, in an entirely free association sense it is similar. They are both blockish in shape and the somewhat subtle upward motion indeed recalls by that condition the heavy shape of the guards on jian. I did not realize the comparison had nothing to do with suggesting any connection, so stylistically perhaps the similarity is valid in degree.

[tom hyle]

Resemblance does suggest connection, but suggestions are not always correct; they are suggestions. One only finds out if they are correct by exploring them freely.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Fresh Dom´s thread brought me one and half year back - to this thread about Berber´s swords: Enclosed is photo with streight swords employing the typical handles. It is from Tripolis (Libya), 1898 - 1906

[TVV]

Great photo that clearly shows hilts of this type, and links them to Tripoli, Libiya specifically. Well done Martin,
Teodor

[Martin Lubojacky]

Thanks. It was pictured of by the traveller Bedrich Machulka

[Iain]

Hi Martin, thanks so much for the photo. The example in the Royal Armouries at Leeds is listed as Tunisian, but I guess this shows the style was a bit more widespread. Which makes sense.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hi Iain, it is not so far from South Tunisia to Libian Tripoli. Also Berbers have been living on both sides of the border (using e.g. the same or similar jewelery design).

[Andy Stevens]

Martin, thankyou so much for the image, these are interesting swords and it's great to finally say for sure where they come from. Well done that man!

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Martin, thanks so much for the photo. The example in the Royal Armouries at Leeds is listed as Tunisian, but I guess this shows the style was a bit more widespread. Which makes sense.

Royal armouries Leeds

[ariel]

Not so long ago Czerny's tried to sell one as a Tunisian.
Starting price was €1000 + 28% to the house. No bites.....

I also have one with (what I was told) 17-18 century European blade and original scabbard.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

I also have one with (what I was told) 17-18 century European blade and original scabbard.

Me too!
About Leeds sword
Did you notice that they cut off 1/3 of the blade? I think that it was a double edged sword with central fullers. They cut the blade to make it as a a single edged sabre with upper fullers as you can see on some Arabian swords or shashka...

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting observation on the Leeds sword. It does seem like the blade could have been reprofiled in that manner and curious that such dramatic stock removal and effort would be undertaken distinctly to achieve a sabre blade.
This speaks to the type of use that must have been preferred regionally in these areas suggesting the favor of sabre over broadsword, at least in some degree. Since in these areas the broadsword blades seen in takouba and kaskara predominated, this action suggests certain individual or limited preference although limited, did recognize influences from the west.
These are the kinds of anomalies in ethnographic weapons which are fascinating to include in investigations.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

I also have one with (what I was told) 17-18 century European blade and original scabbard.

Ariel if you show me yours, i will show you mine.
Mmmmm i was saying the same to the little girls when i was a little boy...