bali kris with bugis sheath or...?

[ronpakis]

Gentleman,

Who can tell what were looking at? This was sold recently on a dutch auction site. Looks like a nice balinese blade, but is this perhaps a bit to nice? Or is it the real thing?

Greetings Ron

ps: not mine

[Sajen]

I think it is a Malay blade in original dress but with Bali handle and uwer. I have seen this keris as well and was very unsure about it since I have never seen something similar before. Maybe one of our Peninsula friends will be able to enlighten us.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

I don't know why and maybe i'm completely wrong, but i get the feeling by this blade made in China.

Balinese ukiran and uwer. Sheath could be Bugis.

[Rick]

This style of blade and gonjo are something I have not seen before .

A Swiss Cheese gonjo ?!?

[ronpakis]

but what it really is? I was going to make a small chance but the price went pretty high pretty quick.

gr Ron

[Sajen]

There have been some other keris from the same seller amongst others a very nice old Cirebon keris which went as well very high and quick. Like the others I haven't seen a blade like this before but my feeling tell me that this is a genuine old blade of maybe Peninsula origin. But I have been and still be very unsure about the quality of the blade since the naga sinuosity isn't very well executed in my humple opinion. But I am sure that the buyer know for what he give such a high price.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

Originally Posted by Sajen

There have been some other keris from the same seller amongst others a very nice old Cirebon keris which went as well very high and quick. Like the others I haven't seen a blade like this before but my feeling tell me that this is a genuine old blade of maybe Peninsula origin. But I have been and still be very unsure about the quality of the blade since the naga sinuosity isn't very well executed in my humple opinion. But I am sure that the buyer know for what he give such a high price.
Regards,

Detlef

Are you sure, Detlef? Caveat emptor

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Henk

Are you sure, Detlef? Caveat emptor

Hi Henk,

I write that I am sure but sure you can be never in life!

I am far away to be an expert but something tell me that the blade is a genuine one. Let us see what more knowlegde members will tell us about the blade.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gustav]

The question is, what meens "genuine" in this case.

[A. G. Maisey]

What I will now write is pure opinion and is not based upon any prior knowledge. Often I will write something that I know for certain to be the case, but I couch it as an opinion to avoid offense, or confrontation.

This is not the case this time.

I believe this to be an old ensemble, and genuine.

I know of only one place in the Archipelago that something like this may have been produced, and that is Lombok.

Lombok has mixed cultures, with people of Balinese, Bugis, and Javanese origin living together.

There is a long history of unique , unconventional and highly artistic (as well as incredibly ugly) keris that have come out of Lombok.

If this keris was a racehorse, I'd give odds of 7 to 1 on Lombok origin.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

The question is, what meens "genuine" in this case.

With other words authentic.

[Marcokeris]

If i would have one keris like this ....i would be very very very happy

[asomotif]

I saw this one too.
Considering the pictures, the kind of seller and the other keris he offered I also think this is an original ensemble. At least already for a long time.

The price went pretty high imo, But if you want a rare type/variant and can afford it, this is something extraordinairy.

The Cirebon keris he offered also looked very good, old and original and will make a better investment than this odd chinese/bugis/bali combi which will probably be questioned by a lot collectors.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

The Cirebon keris he offered also looked very good, old and original and will make a better investment than this odd chinese/bugis/bali combi which will probably be questioned by a lot collectors.

Hi Willem,

yes, I agree. The Cirebon keris he offered was a very hard to come by keris and at last not to expensive.

Regards,

Detlef

[asomotif]

Ps.

The naga on this keris reminds me of dragons on Brunei cast work. (gong's and kettle's) / Chinese influence.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, what I mean by "genuine" is fair dinkum, ridgy didge, straight up, made in a keris bearing society for local consumption.

However, were I to find a keris like this at a weekend trash & treasure market, I would sell it as quickly as I could find a buyer for it.

This sort of thing is most definitely not what I have any great regard for.

Unusual does not = good.

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gustav, what I mean by "genuine" is fair dinkum, ridgy didge, straight up, made in a keris bearing society for local consumption.

However, were I to find a keris like this at a weekend trash & treasure market, I would sell it as quickly as I could find a buyer for it.

This sort of thing is most definitely not what I have any great regard for.

Unusual does not = good.

"Odd" combinations have been made in the past.
If they are newly made most collectors assume they are fake.
If they are old some collectors consider them to be valuable.
Maybe they are valuable.
But that is in the eye of the beholder.

I like the blade

[A. G. Maisey]

Very true Asomotif:- beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Regrettably for many beholders, that in which we have a shared interest, although it may be regarded as a "collectible" in our ranks, and in the West in general, is regarded as an art work and cultural icon in most places where it originates.

Because of the perception which applies in its places of origin, certain minimal standards need to be met in order for any keris to be deemed an item of quality. For those who may have absorbed these standards, I feel that this particular keris might not quite make the grade.

Still, to each his own. After all, this is a Forum orientated towards the west, rather than towards parts of South East Asia.

The sticking point with this keris is not the dress, it is the keris itself. Odd combinations are often quite legitimate, and a number of well known odd combinations with history behind them can be quoted.

[napoleon]

hello i had something similar ,in the sense that it had a little buddist lion where your dragon appears, on this one it was overlaid with gold,and had been etched many times ,im not saying this one is new,but doesnt seem to have the right look to it,for what its worth

[David]

Originally Posted by napoleon

hello i had something similar ,in the sense that it had a little buddist lion where your dragon appears, on this one it was overlaid with gold,and had been etched many times ,im not saying this one is new,but doesnt seem to have the right look to it,for what its worth

Sounds like what you had was a a keris with a "singo" (lion). The creature on Ron's example is probably more correctly a "naga" (serpent) than a dragon, a common element on many keris. A keris doesn't need to be etched many times to be authentically old (could depend on when it was collected) and of course in a tradition that goes back a millenium there are many different levels of what could be considered "old". I think we already established that this keris is an odd man out, so to speak, but that in all probability it is authentic.