Dapur question ?

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 09:37 AM

Yes Gustav, the individual bars that are curled at each end are forged down to taper to the end, before being curled.

No, the billet is not more less keris shaped when it is welded together.

I will anticipate your next question:-

how is the billet forged to shape without the pamor motif being distorted?

sorry I am not permitted to answer this question

Gustav · 18th May 2011, 09:55 AM

Thank you, Alan.

As you wrote, more complex pamor occured around 1900. Is this kind of forging bound to elaborate pamor and occured about the same time, or is it older? I remember to have seen pictures of a badly worn older blade, where the edges seemed to be inserted (?). It seemed like a kind of forging similar to some Japanese technics to me at this time.

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 02:09 PM

Gustav, it costs a lot of money to make a complex pamor miring using the traditional methods.

In fact it costs an enormous amount of money when that cost is measured against average Javanese income at any time prior to WWII

Because of this and also because of the population levels of Jawa as we go back in time, there were not a lot of people in old periods of Javanese history who could afford to have a keris with a complex pamor. I have seen blades that can be conservatively dated to the 16th and 17th centuries that have complex pamor miring, but any blade with this type of pamor from that period of time must have been the work of a very skilled maker, probably an mpu, and to have been made for a wealthy and important person.

As for this crossed V method of constructing a blade, I have seen evidence of it occurring in blades from the Mataram Senopaten tangguh, and I have only handled blades with pamor wos wutah that have used this cross V construction. Thus it is not limited to only complex pamors, and it is not a product of later technology.

European blades also used a technique where the body of the blade was constructed with a pattern weld, originating from the necessity to wring the impurities from bog iron, and the edge of higher quality steel was inserted.

Complex pamors have been around for a long time, but they are found very, very seldom in genuinely old blades, and when they are found they are usually in very deteriorated condition.

Complex pamors that rely on surface manipulation of a wos wutah base are more often found, but I think it has only been with the resurgence of the keris since about 1980 that we have seen a proliferation of well executed, artistic pamor motifs, often of a type that has not previously been seen. This entrepreneurial spirit of present day pattern welders has resulted in a lot of pamor motifs that really are very difficult to align with traditional pamor motifs.

Gustav · 19th May 2011, 07:02 PM

Alan,

my last questions regarding the drawing you posted.

Would it be much more difficult to make such pamor in this way (crossed V) then with full slorok?

If yes, is this a kind of exercise or examination?

As I understand at the moment, the crossed V method could probably been invented becouse of practical reasons. Are there spiritual motivations for it, probably later developed?

Thank you very much.

A. G. Maisey · 20th May 2011, 08:38 AM

Yes Gustav, it is more difficult than making the usual sandwich.

To my knowledge this method did not have any significance other than that it was a superior method used by skilled makers on high quality blades. It does have several practical reasons for its existence, apart from the solid pamor core, it uses less of the expensive steel than the sandwich.

I know of no possible spiritual motivation for the use of this method.

dewaruci · 27th May 2011, 04:07 AM

Hi Danny ...
In my opinion, your kris is still original, I also have a collection similar to yours, I think of materials is similar with iron, pamor and from the same era, but have 5 luks with dapur 'Pendowo Cinarito'.
I think the addition of a new 'sogokan' can be seen on the smoothness or fineness surface in blade, the old blades that made the new 'sogokan' will usually looks very smooth and flat so that almost no visible corrosion on the iron, or could be still seen from bad work results, but also the need of accuracy, because sometimes after new added 'ricikan' made, the dagger will be processed by certain liquid for add corrosion.
So in this case we need to see a variety of precision and compare from a lot of keris.

danny1976 · 27th May 2011, 05:46 PM

Hi dewaruci,

Thank you for showing your keris .
From the photo,s your blade looks a lot like mine , of course different dapur.

Do you have a idea about the age of your blade ?

27th May 2011, 04:07 AM	#6
dewaruci Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Java Posts: 13	Hi Danny ... In my opinion, your kris is still original, I also have a collection similar to yours, I think of materials is similar with iron, pamor and from the same era, but have 5 luks with dapur 'Pendowo Cinarito'. I think the addition of a new 'sogokan' can be seen on the smoothness or fineness surface in blade, the old blades that made the new 'sogokan' will usually looks very smooth and flat so that almost no visible corrosion on the iron, or could be still seen from bad work results, but also the need of accuracy, because sometimes after new added 'ricikan' made, the dagger will be processed by certain liquid for add corrosion. So in this case we need to see a variety of precision and compare from a lot of keris. Attached Images

27th May 2011, 05:46 PM	#7
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi dewaruci, Thank you for showing your keris . From the photo,s your blade looks a lot like mine , of course different dapur. Do you have a idea about the age of your blade ? Attached Images

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18th May 2011, 09:37 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes Gustav, the individual bars that are curled at each end are forged down to taper to the end, before being curled. No, the billet is not more less keris shaped when it is welded together. I will anticipate your next question:- how is the billet forged to shape without the pamor motif being distorted? sorry I am not permitted to answer this question

18th May 2011, 09:55 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Thank you, Alan. As you wrote, more complex pamor occured around 1900. Is this kind of forging bound to elaborate pamor and occured about the same time, or is it older? I remember to have seen pictures of a badly worn older blade, where the edges seemed to be inserted (?). It seemed like a kind of forging similar to some Japanese technics to me at this time.

18th May 2011, 02:09 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Gustav, it costs a lot of money to make a complex pamor miring using the traditional methods. In fact it costs an enormous amount of money when that cost is measured against average Javanese income at any time prior to WWII Because of this and also because of the population levels of Jawa as we go back in time, there were not a lot of people in old periods of Javanese history who could afford to have a keris with a complex pamor. I have seen blades that can be conservatively dated to the 16th and 17th centuries that have complex pamor miring, but any blade with this type of pamor from that period of time must have been the work of a very skilled maker, probably an mpu, and to have been made for a wealthy and important person. As for this crossed V method of constructing a blade, I have seen evidence of it occurring in blades from the Mataram Senopaten tangguh, and I have only handled blades with pamor wos wutah that have used this cross V construction. Thus it is not limited to only complex pamors, and it is not a product of later technology. European blades also used a technique where the body of the blade was constructed with a pattern weld, originating from the necessity to wring the impurities from bog iron, and the edge of higher quality steel was inserted. Complex pamors have been around for a long time, but they are found very, very seldom in genuinely old blades, and when they are found they are usually in very deteriorated condition. Complex pamors that rely on surface manipulation of a wos wutah base are more often found, but I think it has only been with the resurgence of the keris since about 1980 that we have seen a proliferation of well executed, artistic pamor motifs, often of a type that has not previously been seen. This entrepreneurial spirit of present day pattern welders has resulted in a lot of pamor motifs that really are very difficult to align with traditional pamor motifs.

19th May 2011, 07:02 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, my last questions regarding the drawing you posted. Would it be much more difficult to make such pamor in this way (crossed V) then with full slorok? If yes, is this a kind of exercise or examination? As I understand at the moment, the crossed V method could probably been invented becouse of practical reasons. Are there spiritual motivations for it, probably later developed? Thank you very much.

20th May 2011, 08:38 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes Gustav, it is more difficult than making the usual sandwich. To my knowledge this method did not have any significance other than that it was a superior method used by skilled makers on high quality blades. It does have several practical reasons for its existence, apart from the solid pamor core, it uses less of the expensive steel than the sandwich. I know of no possible spiritual motivation for the use of this method.