Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

[Jim McDougall]

Well it would seem that Davids concerns for the southward turn on this discussion have come to pass, though I am grateful for having my beliefs corrected. I think he has patently corrected the misperceptions and well instructed us in how to properly observe these clearly volatile areas of discussion.I will be sure to approach my interpretations of neopaganism with newly enlightened respect.
I had hoped that we could focus on the dagger and the interesting motif, but the rather personal demeanor has become counterproductive so I will thank Archer for posting it, and participants for the most interesting contributions.

Best regards,
Jim

[David]

I agree with you Jim that our discussions should indeed remain focussed on the dagger at hand. I see no reason, however, why this discussion needs in any way to be over simply because we were temporarily side tracked. I think that Tim's postings of other everyday items from the period that have used similar imagery (Green Man, dragons) should be sufficient to support that there was probably no occult intent in the creation of this dagger. Perhaps we can continue the discussion with this in mind.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

I agree with you Jim that our discussions should indeed remain focussed on the dagger at hand. I see no reason, however, why this discussion needs in any way to be over simply because we were temporarily side tracked. I think that Tim's postings of other everyday items from the period that have used similar imagery (Green Man, dragons) should be sufficient to support that there was probably no occult intent in the creation of this dagger. Perhaps we can continue the discussion with this in mind.

I believe we are in accord David, and that we should proceed with caution as we consider more on the most interesting motif and possible associations for the use or provenance of the dagger.

All the best,
Jim

[archer]

Thank you all for the information. I liked it and wanted to bid early on:but, it was much too puzzling. Thanks, Steve

[David]

Originally Posted by archer

Thank you all for the information. I liked it and wanted to bid early on:but, it was much too puzzling. Thanks, Steve

Ah yes Steve, but sometimes you just gotta go with your gut, the puzzles be damned!
....of course it would have been a wee chunk o' change you would have had to lay down for the right to handle that puzzle so i can understand you hesitance. ...still i'm will to bet this blade feels really nice in the hand...

[Rick]

I would like to get this one niggling question straight .

The thread title says 'Cruciform' ; correct ?

Pardon me if I assume the blade of this implement has 4 edges rather than the three edges mentioned in a post earlier on .

Just to get things straight about this piece for the record .

Four edges to the blade; "cruciform" or not ?

Or is it three edges ?
Please, who has the answer ?

Rick

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Rick,

A "cruciform" cross section would indeed indicate a hollow-ground, four-sided blade.

[Robert]

Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field.

Robert

[David]

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field.

Robert

I suppose that is a possibility. Of course the Green Man does appear all over Europe even is we do see it more in this form in England, so who knows.
Is there anyone who is good at IDing various forms of dragon designs? Do they get specific from country to country in Europe?

[Tim Simmons]

I think the creature on the dagger ia a Wyvern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Like the Green Man a pan European thing. I can add pictures of Swiss/German contempory Green Man masks from mountian regions. They might have different names but the same thing. It stricks me as just a little too showy to be British.

Swiss festival mask. Rather like the traditional garb of the leader of an English Morris group. Ancient roots but nothing to do with the so called neo-pagans hotch potch.

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think the creature on the dagger ia a Wyvern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Thanks Tim, i think you may have nailed that one...

[Jim McDougall]

The Wyvern is well known in medieval heraldry and among the mythical beastiary. The symbolism often associated with it, as I understand, includes valor, strength, wardenship and protection. It seems widely apparant in Great Britain and is of course notably present as seen on the Welsh flag.

I believe the symbolism of the Green Man may be seen in many applications in many countries and probably variants culturally, and of course it does have ancient roots including use in Pagan beliefs, rituals and symbolism. The term Neopagan signifies, as I understand, various groups and followings who practice the perpetuation of many of these traditions and beliefs from ancient times as well as modern versions, and are very much recognized as Faiths and Religions in thier pursuit of them.

I personally had not understood the magnitude of importance in understanding this beforehand, and have learned a great deal from resultant discussions here how important it is to approach these matters in discussion with the same respect and understanding which must be applied to all cultures, religions and creeds.

I think it is important to learn from all things, in our case the study of weapons, and in the context of our discussions emphatically respect these as we add observations and suggest thoughts and views.

Having said that, it is interesting to see the motif here as heavily reflecting heraldic symbolism, and while I had noted the ecclesiastic symbolism that is sometimes seen with the green man device, clearly its interpretation may be found in many cultural contexts and variations.

Though I dont believe we have reached any sort of consensus on the possible provenance or probable associations with this dagger, it seems well established it is a fascinating item which probably is from the 19th century and English in my opinion.

All best regards,
Jim