Silver inlayed 19thC Mexican Spur with Stars/Stripes?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now this is esoterica Gene!!! and actually, I think spurs are very much part of the study of arms and armor, as from medieval times they were actually a sign of rank. As for tenuous, not at all with the great tie in with this classic movie!! probably more for the actors than the actual content.
The spur didnt really kill the guy with a spur (so we wont need to worry about activists seeking to outlaw spurs now but actually threw it at him, presenting the distraction needed for the deadly gunshot.

This example looks to me markedly Mexican, though I cannot claim any knowledge or even awareness toward this topic. As noted by Chris, the presence of spurs is well seated in American cowboy tradition, which has of course borne its origins in the colorful history of New Spain. This heritage in turn carries the traditions from medieval times and chivalry brought from the Iberian Peninsula.

I think that the distinct appearance and elaborate decoration may be more of a Spanish influence, more than regional application. While the huge rowel signifies the 'espeula grande' type , it seems more likely Spanish Southwest or Mexico, though certainly the gaucho examples are well noted.

The use of stars in linear motif would not signify American association in my opinion though, as these stars are known to be used in many types of insignia, flags and regalia. As spurs were often custom made, there seem to be any number of possibilities.

It is very true that the styles and flamboyance of Mexico in the material culture of its frontier and Spanish Colonial history is one of the very things that make the study of these arms and accoutrements so exciting in my opinion. The Mexican vaquero was stylish indeed, as were the Mexican cowboys who carried the traditions forward.

Returning to the movie images noted by Gene, who can forget the rugged and elaborately distinct character and flamboyantly festooned bandidos and revolutionaries in western movies with huge sombreros, bandoleers, flared pants and clanking rowel spurs. While some might see them as cartooned cliche's, I see beyond that and see the spirited and rugged caballeros who formed the character of not only Mexico, but very much America itself.

It would be great to learn more on spurs and thier history, and think it is an excellent topic to pursue further! Outstanding Gene, thank you!!

Alan, good one there from OZ, love the kangaroo kuddlers!!!

Chris, excellent note on the frequency of seeing spurs around, and I can formly attest to that as the 'bookmobile' courses through the Southwest constantly.

All the best,
Jim

Sorry mate, how did I miss this thread continuing?

As always Jim, great historical context, thank you
Even over here you do occasionally see antique 'American' (north and south) Spurs, but I've never seen one of this quality!

As for the cliche ridden movie depictions of Mexican cowboys, I still love them!
Of course I'm not a kid any more and I understand they are often more pantomine than historically accurate, in fact mostly the actors are of course not even Mexican!
Hmm, I think I'm going to have to have an afternoon of classic westerns!
Perhaps the 3 great Eastwood 'man with no name' outings?
Gian Maria Volonté as Ramon and Indio is a total revelation!

And Eli Walach's Tuco 'There are two types of spurs, those that come in through the door, and those that come in through the window'

Back on subject though, hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

Best
Gene

[Berkley]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

I agree that this is a most interesting study. Here is my lonely contribution to the discussion, a typical Mexican working spur with silver accents, nearly in relic condition I fear, and of no great distinction -

While attempting to learn something on the subject, I discovered an interesting old book online, The History of the Spur by Charles de Lacy: http://www.archive.org/stream/histor...ge/n7/mode/2up
I gather from an afternoon perusing the web that the espuela grande with a large multi-tined sunburst rowel is originally a Spanish design, in turn derived from Northern European versions such as this Cavalier spur shown in de Lacy:

Since they are Spanish in origin, the sunburst-rowelled spurs appear to be found throughout Mexico and South America. A brief search of the web produces these specimens, described (clockwise from top left) as South American, Argentine, and Chilean.

If identification of the place of origin of any particular piece is the goal, regional variations in decorative patterns may be more important than the design of the spur.
Alas, I am unlikely to ever be fortunate enough to possess even one of these beautiful espuelas.

[Atlantia]

Big welcome to the thread Berkley.

Great research, and a nice 'working' Spur BTW! (In fact it seems rather fancy for just a working spur!)
So it looks as though my example could be either from Mexico or further south?
I wonder how unusual these elaborate examples are?

[Nagawarrior]

Your spur is from Chili.
I own Tim's spurs now.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=62985
I did research and contacted Abel A. Domenech.
Mr. Domenech says definitely Chilean.
Search Chilean spurs and you will find many examples.
Hope this helps.
Love my spurs. They are awesome and go well with my Gaucho display.
Best,
Stephen*

P.S. They are called something like cry babies or something like that because of the sound they make when walking. I forget the spanish word for it.

P.S.S. Here is his response;
"Dear Stephen:
Thank you so much for your kind message and comments about my article.
You got a very nice pair of spurs indeed!.
This type is known here as "lloronas" (something like "criers" or "which make cry") may be due to the metallic sound they do when walking while wearing them associated with the sound of a human crying.
Actually, this type of big roundel spiked spurs were much popular in Chile, our neighbour Country, just crossing the cordillera of Andes (mountain chain).
I´m not an speciallist of spurs, but I bet these spurs of yours, are of Chilean make, and most probably of XIX C.
They usually have silver inclussions on the "frame", which I can´t see well in your picture.
Also, they are sometimes marked with the name of the silversmith who made them, and this detail is dessirable in any piece of silverware or gaucho item.
Hope this little information is of interest to you, and I wish you enjoy very much these nice spurs.
Thank you again, and receive my cordial regards,"

Abel D.

[Gonzalo G]

With all due respect to my friend Abel, he does not know the Mexican spurs. Atlantia has already demonstrated with examples that this kind of spurs also come from Mexico. Just see the photos. In any case, this style, as established, come also from Mexico. But neverthless, everybody can be mistaken in this specific case, and only a close examination or study can bring definite results, as this subject is not a matter of faith. Maybe a test on the silver can determinate the Mexican or South American origin. I also would like to know a definitive scientific ID, different from the opinions, mine included.
Regards

Gonzalo

[laEspadaAncha]

FWIW, I sent the photos of Gene's spur to noted spur expert and author Kurt House, to whom I had previously reached out to request assistance identifying a pair of spurs I had acquired at an auction earlier this year. He has authored and published several books on spurs and has forgotten more about spurs than most of us will ever know... Once again, he was kind enough to reply:

"Chris: Rarely can I state anything with 100% confidence, but this Chilean spur is an exception. No doubt about it, I can prove it, which is rare.

Kurt House"


Seems pretty definitive to me.

[Gonzalo G]

Not to me. It looks like another opinion based on the most common places, and I don´t accept opninions merely based on a principle of authority. On the other side, based on what I just saw, I don´t have much confidence about the knowledge from non-Latin American aficionados about Latin American items (even about Spanish items, if not comming from Spanish connoisseurs). Specially when I have direct knowledge about this items and I don´t need to base my opinions on a third party. Besides, for what I see Mr. House is not specialized in antique Mexican or Latin American spurs, but in USA´s cowboys. I can argument more on this subject but I don´t see any reason to continue this discussion under any circumstances, since all points of view were exposed, I already proposed a scientific method to clear this point, and I don´t have a personal interest insisting on this point.

The silver from South America can be metallographically distinguished from the Mexican.

Bye