Another Dayak Sword

[David]

Originally Posted by Dinggat

I tried to, but the upload tool says that my pictures exceed the maximum size limit. As I think the bigger the better for seeing details I decided to go with an external hoster instead of resizing.

Thanks at all for those informations. Most welcome

This is a misunderstanding about resizing images. File size is not just dependent upon the dimensions of the image, but the resolution size (ppi). Computer screens can't read ppi above 80, so change your resolution to 80ppi and the dimensions to something like 7x10. That will be plenty large for viewing, but still have a file size small enough for the site.
The reason it is not a good idea to use another server for your images is that maybe a year from now it won't be there any more and this thread will no longer have your example to refer too.

[Sajen]

Hello Dingat,

now I understand!

The top sword is from the Timor Islands ( Alor, Pantar, Roti, Savu, Timor and Wetar) and named in the book from Zonneveld type a.

Regards,

Detlef

[Dinggat]

Originally Posted by David

This is a misunderstanding about resizing images. File size is not just dependent upon the dimensions of the image, but the resolution size (ppi). Computer screens can't read ppi above 80, so change your resolution to 80ppi and the dimensions to something like 7x10. That will be plenty large for viewing, but still have a file size small enough for the site.
The reason it is not a good idea to use another server for your images is that maybe a year from now it won't be there any more and this thread will no longer have your example to refer too.

Alright, didn't know that. Yet, there's not only a byte maximum, but also a resolution maximum of 1280x1280.

But your reasoning about this thread staying useful in the future is of course right, so here they are again, as attachments

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Can the parang, despite not being an antique one, be attributed to a certain Dayak subgroup? And what shape do you think the blade has or might have? Same as the one VANDOO posted?

Sajen, thank you. I'll look up that Timorese sword in the Zonneveld book. Fortunately the library where I work has it in their inventory, and I often browse through it when I have nothing to do Luckily enough, no one ever borrowed it...

[asomotif]

The second sword from the top looks like what the Soenda call: Gobang Kalewang. It looks locally-made. If the blade is hand-forged, then it could be an original from circa 1902, probably made in Soerabaja or Soemedang(which, around 1850-1930 was the local "Solingen").

Hello Amuk,
The second from the top is a copy of the 1911 model "Sabel Marechaussee"
So 1902 would be a little premature as a date of manufacture.

Hela Dinngat,
As for the mandau and Timor sword. tourist examples. Can't make it any better. At least I get the impression that they where not offered to you for sale. That is a plus.
Check the search function on "mandau" and check some of the old threads.

Good luck !
Best regards,
Willem

[Dinggat]

Yes, thank you. Mandau is the way to go.

They weren't offered to me for sale, they were in his possession as his private collection, and he just showed them to me for fun.
Sabel Marechaussee was a good keyword. Found lots of pages via Google, among them several threads on Vikingsword Klewang being the Indonesian name for it. Can we be sure it is a copy, judging solely from the two photos?

Edit/ Hehe, just noted somebody has written "DATU" (Malay honorific title) on the Mandau's hilt with a marker pen for whatever reason...

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Everybody

Originally Posted by Dinggat

.....
Sabel Marechaussee was a good keyword. Found lots of pages via Google, among them several threads on Vikingsword Klewang being the Indonesian name for it. Can we be sure it is a copy, judging solely from the two photos?.....

I've tried to get a better look at the pictures.

First of all, my apologies for a typo. The year of manufacture I was referring to in my initial reply was circa 1909, NOT circa 1902.

WRT the photos.... too many uncertainties...
For instance, from the angle:
The tang screw appears smaller than normal... but is it so?
The scale rivets appear to have 'X' marks... is it so? If so, are they punch marks or Phillips counter-sunk screw-heads?
I can't detect any 'square corners' where there should be on the cut-outs of the guard...is it so?

BTW... Klewang is not the specific Indonesian word for it, as klewang is a generic name used for a variety of edged weapons in the Archipelago. Only the Dutch use it specifically for this weapon.The specific Indonesian name for it is Pedang Marsose.

Best,

[asomotif]

..I prefer to look at it the other way... and say that the above was the field-developed model on which the M1911 was based. These were produced by local smiths and tested in the field before being accepted for European manufacture.

Although these hand made pieces are difficult to put a date on, this can be an early production. But still, the handguard and blade are based on the dutch dutch Cavalrieswords Model 1846 and 1875.
And the specific bladetip can even be recognised in the Model 1813 cavalry sword.

I can't detect any 'square corners' where there should be on the cut-outs of the guard...is it so?

The square corners are IMO typical of the dutch factory produced Hembrug examples. (see picture)

Always interesting how some first "stamp" sized pictures bring up te reactions.
BTW There is a nice book on the militairy Klewang by Mr. J.P.. Puype.

Best regards,
Willem

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

I have no wish to enter into debate on this, so I'll simply end this matter (as far as I'm concerned) with my opinion on a couple of points:

Originally Posted by asomotif

..... still, the handguard and blade are based on the dutch dutch Cavalrieswords Model 1846 and 1875......

Here we differ Willem. I believe the Kalewang handguard to be a direct copy of the Dutch Cavalry Officer's Sabre M1876 minus the irritating protrusion. I acknowledge that the hilts of the M1846 & M1875 were used on earlier locally-produced blades (you, may call them Proto-Klewangs), but I think that these hilts had 'wire' guards, not sheet-metal with cut-outs.

Originally Posted by asomotif

.....The square corners are IMO typical of the dutch factory produced Hembrug examples.....

Here we may differ again.... While 'square corners' may be typical of Hembrug, I believe both Lilley-Ames and Vince also produced guards with 'square corners' for the 1941 KNIL contract.

Originally Posted by asomotif

.....a nice book on the militairy Klewang by Mr. J.P.. Puype.....

As you seem fond of referring to Mr. Puype, may I suggest that you perhaps 're-visit' him and/or his book.
Should you then feel that you may have incontrovertible evidence that I am in error, please let me know and I will be only too glad to make any appropriate adjustment.

Otherwise..... we will have to agree to disagree..

Best,

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Amuk,
The second from the top is a copy of the 1911 model "Sabel Marechaussee"
So 1902 would be a little premature as a date of manufacture.

..I prefer to look at it the other way... and say that the above was the field-developed model on which the M1911 was based. These were produced by local smiths and tested in the field before being accepted for European manufacture. Successive modifications in the field addressed the short-comings of the Kalewang in action. Production in Europe merely "dotted the i's and crossed the t's" of the design. Also, there was often a lag time between the use of a newly-developed weapon 'tested' in the field and its official designation and its becoming 'regulation issue'.

Best,