Twistcore Kindjal for comments.

[Atlantia]

I feel this deserves its own thread (so it doesn't get compared with the Herman Historica one too much!).
Firstly a BIG thanks goes out to Tatyana, Norman and Lew (for the private advice).
I decided to take the plunge and risk buying this piece.
I've always wanted a Kindjal and strangely, in over 30 years of collecting and after countless edged weapons have come and gone, this is actually my first!
The pictures are as its arrived with me. No cleaning except wiping of gluey grease from blade.

Apart from that these range over a wide area, I know very little so please feel free to post any comments at all, even if it seems like you're saying something obvious. It may not be obvious to me

[Atlantia]

Dom has confirmed that despite the rather odd '3' the date is 1904.

Thanks Dom

[carlitobrigante]

well i dont know much about these but this is beautifull!

I love that twist core work in the fullers, that allied to the plainess of the hilt and the decoriation on the scabbard gives it a real nice look. congrats

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Gene,
Looks like a solid meaningful blade, what are the measurements? Is the handle horn and is the handle furniture silver or...? Kindjals are not that thick on the ground in the U.K. it would seem, I go to sales reasonably regularly never seen one yet! Not really an Empire bring back I suppose unlike Tulwars etc. Look forward to more info from the knowledgeable.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

well i dont know much about these but this is beautifull!

I love that twist core work in the fullers, that allied to the plainess of the hilt and the decoriation on the scabbard gives it a real nice look. congrats

HI Carlito,
Thank you I fear I don't know that much about them either!
Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
Looks like a solid meaningful blade, what are the measurements? Is the handle horn and is the handle furniture silver or...? Kindjals are not that thick on the ground in the U.K. it would seem, I go to sales reasonably regularly never seen one yet! Not really an Empire bring back I suppose unlike Tulwars etc. Look forward to more info from the knowledgeable.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,

Overall a shade over 59cm (not including scabbard). Blade around 45cm. Hilt slabs are horn with iron furniture.
I've seen a fair few over the years, but never a proper twistcored one.
Thanks mate

Best
Gene

[TVV]

Wonderful piece Gene, congratulations!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by TVV

Wonderful piece Gene, congratulations!

Cheers Mate,
Thats kind of you, means a lot
Do you have any info on this type? I see you have a Kindjal on your avatar......

[TVV]

I cannot add much that you do not know already, but the scabbard has a Turkish feel - the crescent with the star is one of the reasons and the other is the thin brass sheet cover.

Regards,
Teodor

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by TVV

I cannot add much that you do not know already, but the scabbard has a Turkish feel - the crescent with the star is one of the reasons and the other is the thin brass sheet cover.

Regards,
Teodor

LOL! Well spotted Teodor.
I hadn't even noticed that element of the pattern.
So could this be Turkish?

[Atlantia]

Its a bit demoralising really. I thought this would engender some discussion but after tons of views, only a few replys. Where are all the Kindjal collectors?

[Iain]

Well I don't collect them and know almost nothing about them, but for what it's worth...

I find the form of yours very interesting. Maybe it's just me, but the precision of the fullers and execution of the blade seems almost mechanical to me. I don't mean that it is! Just that's the visual response it evokes for me. Not a negative thing at all, I very much like how clean the lines are.

The second thing I wanted to note, is how the fullers form the outline of a blade within the blade. By which I mean the outline of the blade is echoed by the fuller configuration. It's very attractive, in fact on your third picture from the top, I had a double take and was caught out wondering why the blade was surrounded by steel!

The hilt construction is also interesting. From the photos it appears that the slabs are held in place by pins that are also horn? I also wanted to ask if the raised little rib on the grip is integral to the horn slabs or a separate piece? If separate how is it attached?

A beautiful weapon. Many thanks for allowing even people like myself, with no knowledge about them, the chance to learn, even if just from the pictures alone.

Best,

Iain

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ispn

Well I don't collect them and know almost nothing about them, but for what it's worth...

I find the form of yours very interesting. Maybe it's just me, but the precision of the fullers and execution of the blade seems almost mechanical to me. I don't mean that it is! Just that's the visual response it evokes for me. Not a negative thing at all, I very much like how clean the lines are.

The second thing I wanted to note, is how the fullers form the outline of a blade within the blade. By which I mean the outline of the blade is echoed by the fuller configuration. It's very attractive, in fact on your third picture from the top, I had a double take and was caught out wondering why the blade was surrounded by steel!

The hilt construction is also interesting. From the photos it appears that the slabs are held in place by pins that are also horn? I also wanted to ask if the raised little rib on the grip is integral to the horn slabs or a separate piece? If separate how is it attached?

A beautiful weapon. Many thanks for allowing even people like myself, with no knowledge about them, the chance to learn, even if just from the pictures alone.

Best,

Iain

Hi Iain,

Thanks for your kind words
I guess because of my way of collecting, I tend to only research weapons that I own an example of. That means that aside from a very basic knowledge of these, I know very little about their detail, because I've never actually owned one.
I've seen etched patterns in fullers on these blades before, and quite a few plain examples, but this has been the first I've seen offered that had a price that seemed reflective of its quality, and was nice enough to tempt me, because of its twisted star pattern to lay out what eventually amounted to 40 hours wages!!
the hilt studs and central 'boss' are iron. They are just well patinated.
I see what you mean about the shape of the fullers |Thanks for poiinting it out.

best
Gene

[Tatyana Dianova]

Gene, it is really outstanding and rare Kindjal blade, congratulations!
I am by no way a kindjal specialist, but I am with TVV on his Turkish (South? Transcaucasian?) attribution. It is definitely not Kindjal from the North Caucasus, i.e. Dagestan or Chechnya. I will be back at home on Sunday and will try to find some clues in my books. I hope some Kindjal specialists will share their knowledge with us until then (by the way, where is Ariel's comment ?)

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Gene, it is really outstanding and rare Kindjal blade, congratulations!
I am by no way a kindjal specialist, but I am with TVV on his Turkish (South? Transcaucasian?) attribution. It is definitely not Kindjal from the North Caucasus, i.e. Dagestan or Chechnya. I will be back at home on Sunday and will try to find some clues in my books. I hope some Kindjal specialists will share their knowledge with us until then (by the way, where is Ariel's comment ?)

Thank you so much Tatyana for your kind words and help so far. I would very much appreciate any further thoughts you might have.
I'm very relieved to hear that you think I've got a good blade

Best
Gene

[ariel]

I agree: Turkish. In support of this are the scabbard cover and decorations; slender hilt; tall pommel; tall and narrow "buttons".
I do not think I saw many ( if any:-)) kindjals with twisted damscus, must be quite rare.
As to the " Empire bring-back", I have only one word: Gallipoli :-)
And, of course, continuous presence of British arm forces after the end of WWII, and Allenby's march across the Ottoman-controlled Palestine. Many occasions to get a nice trophy to hang on the wall in Goode Olde Englande :-)

Overall, very nice, good workmanship of the blade, but the ottomans, just like the Syrians, never mastered the artistic beauty of Kubachi.

[l'audois]

i find the blade particulary beautiful and certainly not usual
congratulations

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ariel

I agree: Turkish. In support of this are the scabbard cover and decorations; slender hilt; tall pommel; tall and narrow "buttons".
I do not think I saw many ( if any:-)) kindjals with twisted damscus, must be quite rare.
As to the " Empire bring-back", I have only one word: Gallipoli :-)
And, of course, continuous presence of British arm forces after the end of WWII, and Allenby's march across the Ottoman-controlled Palestine. Many occasions to get a nice trophy to hang on the wall in Goode Olde Englande :-)

Overall, very nice, good workmanship of the blade, but the ottomans, just like the Syrians, never mastered the artistic beauty of Kubachi.

Same here Ariel (And thank you for coming into this discussion) i have heard of them but never held one.
Were the Ottoman forces carrying this sort of thing in WW1 then?
Gallipoli was a bloody awful affair for all concerned.

[ariel]

I do not think for a second that it was a regulation weapon, but who knows what kind of sharpie-pointies people might have taken with them to war? And, of course, civilians in Palestine or Turkey proper had them in spades. I am sure there were many opportunities to acquire it either before or after WWI. Unfortunately, weapons do not talk......

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ariel

Unfortunately, weapons do not talk......

Thanks mate, if it did come from Gallipoli it might be a blessing that it can't talk

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by l'audois

i find the blade particulary beautiful and certainly not usual
congratulations

Thank you I am very pleased with it. I've just finished cleaning the gunk off of the blade and there is a nice steel edge showing. I'll add pictures tomorrow when I can take them in daylight.
Best
gene

[Yannis]

IMO The sword (blade and hilt) is Caucasian. I have seen few twisted cores. I cannot understand from the photos if it is real twisted or etched. Only a close look can possibly tell.

But the scabbard is not from Caucasus. It could be from anywhere southern. Like Bulgaria, North Greece, Turkey or Syria.

IMO the scabbard is later addition on a fine kidjal.

I hope this helps.

BTW, I am glad to be here again after long time

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Yannis

IMO The sword (blade and hilt) is Caucasian. I have seen few twisted cores. I cannot understand from the photos if it is real twisted or etched. Only a close look can possibly tell.

But the scabbard is not from Caucasus. It could be from anywhere southern. Like Bulgaria, North Greece, Turkey or Syria.

IMO the scabbard is later addition on a fine kidjal.

I hope this helps.

BTW, I am glad to be here again after long time

Hi Yannis,
Good to have you back, thank you for joining the discussion of my new sword
I was just about to upload the latest pictures as I mentioned to l'audois last night.
I have now finished cleaning the blade and I have given it the lightest possible polish and wipe with a mild product to reveal the structure.
Have a look at the pictures below, you can now see the structure is rather complex. A clear line is visible separating the cutting edge, then a section between the core and the edge, and the twistcore itself which I believe is known as Turkish Star night?
The twist core pattern can be seen to extend beyond the etched area into the polished area, showing it is a genuine twistcore.
I wish it was an earlier blade, but the date has to be right

Although I am astounded at the level of work in a blade dated 1904!!

Surely if I could just decipher that darn name I would have some chance of finding some info on the maker? There can't have been many making such fine blades at that date?