Spanish Punal for a lady?

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Naval Dirk??
This must have been the 'cabin boys' then!!

Hi Gene,

While tangental to the discussion of this particular knife, I thought I'd include a photo of my own (smaller) example along with an even more diminutive navy knife. The Spanish dagger below is about the same size as your own (I'd estimate it's maybe 3/8 of an inch smaller in overall length). Next to it is a knife made under contract for the U.S. Navy in 1864-1865, which as you can see is significantly smaller than the Spanish dagger...



I'd say the moral is to never underestimate the utility of a knife of any size, whether on land or at sea!

[katana]

Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler


Regards David

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler


Regards David

Not at all my friend, I'm as eagre as you to hear more about the naval attribution of these small stag hilted knives. I think one of my local dealers has one and I've ignored it for..... well, frankly months! So if it's more than just a 'vintage' sheath knife, I'll try and find it again!

As for my Spanish dagger....... I'm realy struggling to see them as dirks... But they are rather nice, and laEspadaAncha, Your one is a beauty!

[M ELEY]

I'm also interested in the naval provenance, if possible (the book showing the original piece as Spanish, that is). I know in the past they have been mistaken as plug bayonets. The small grip is possible, as midshipmen in the naval forces were as young as 10. There is a major lack of information on Spanish naval weapons as far as I know.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler


Regards David

Hi David,

With Gene's permission, I'd like to toss in my $.02 on your dagger... I am of the opinion your knife significantly predates not only the FS knife, but Fairbairn & Sykes themselves...

Having a couple P3 (3rd pattern) FS knives myself, the guard is wrong, as it is significantly thicker on P3 FS knives (I excluded the possibility of P1 & P2 FS knives as they were hand-ground in such a fashion that you would see the diamond cross-section flattened at the forte).

Furthermore, it looks as if Jonathan Crookes began using the stamp "Jonathan Crookes & Son" beginning in 1827. According to a collector's guide I have, the Jonathan Crookes stamp or logo with the heart and pistol dates from 1780-1827.



Mark - Re: the book, I don't think it will satiate your appetite for Spanish naval reference material...

The book is a catch-all pictorial reference guide, entitled A World Encyclopedia of Swords, Daggers, and Bayonets written by one Dr. Tobias Capwell. I had bought it following an acquisition of several dozen bayonets, as bayos are (at best) a tertiary interest to me. What I found was not only did it provide a rich and diverse pictorial directory of nearly every knife form imaginable, but the author did an excellent job of describing the evolution of the oldest edged fighting implement known to man over the course of five millennia...

In the book is a chapter in the reference section entitled, "Naval Dirks of the 18th and 19th Centuries," in which this exmaple may be found. What makes it a naval dirk is unknown to me...

Regards,

Chris

[katana]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi David,

With Gene's permission, I'd like to toss in my $.02 on your dagger... I am of the opinion your knife significantly predates not only the FS knife, but Fairbairn & Sykes themselves...

Having a couple P3 (3rd pattern) FS knives myself, the guard is wrong, as it is significantly thicker on P3 FS knives (I excluded the possibility of P1 & P2 FS knives as they were hand-ground in such a fashion that you would see the diamond cross-section flattened at the forte).

Furthermore, it looks as if Jonathan Crookes began using the stamp "Jonathan Crookes & Son" beginning in 1827. According to a collector's guide I have, the Jonathan Crookes stamp or logo with the heart and pistol dates from 1780-1827.

Regards,

Chris

Hi Chris ,
thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Yes, that makes it much older than I thought
It seems that my knife could exactly date to 1827 .....and there was me convincing myself that this was, perhaps, a surplus/copy F.S. blade hilted for the Scottish/hunting market ....still, in this instance ...its nice to be so wrong

Kind Regards David

[katana]

Gene,
this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US.....

"..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......"

Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something.

Regards David

[M ELEY]

Hello Chris, thanks for replying

Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast.
P.S. I'll check out that book...

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Chris, thanks for replying

Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast.
P.S. I'll check out that book...

Well, now you mention it, I was watching some movie a while back and a spanish sailor/brigand/pirate had a big single edged knife rather like my one above.
Not that that is exactly 'proof' LOL! But it did get me thinking, and they would have made a good utility/weapon.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Gene,
this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US.....

"..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......"

Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something.

Regards David

Thanks mate. I can't remember who has it, but one of the dealers I know has one for sure. I'll keep an eye open for it!
Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Gene,

While tangental to the discussion of this particular knife, I thought I'd include a photo of my own (smaller) example along with an even more diminutive navy knife. The Spanish dagger below is about the same size as your own (I'd estimate it's maybe 3/8 of an inch smaller in overall length). Next to it is a knife made under contract for the U.S. Navy in 1864-1865, which as you can see is significantly smaller than the Spanish dagger...



I'd say the moral is to never underestimate the utility of a knife of any size, whether on land or at sea!

Hi laEspadaAncha,
The one like mine is lovely, nice scabbard too!!!
The other one is interesting, I've seen them and ignored them, thinking them mid 20thC belt knives What exactly was their function in the naval context?
Time for a reapraisal for me I think
Best
Gene

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi laEspadaAncha,
The one like mine is lovely, nice scabbard too!!!
The other one is interesting, I've seen them and ignored them, thinking them mid 20thC belt knives What exactly was their function in the naval context?
Time for a reapraisal for me I think
Best
Gene

Hi Gene,

Belt knives to be sure, and in the past 200+ years, they really haven't changed all that much IMO. Of course, as form follows function, I can understand why.

Truth be told, I'm unsure of the intended function such knives would have served on a ship. I would hazard to speculate that the utility mirrored the general utility of any pocket knife or belt knife on land, past or present. I think of more modern rigger's knives, with their marlin spike, and the accompanying blade that is smaller than this example...

Regarding it's exact function though, I honestly have no idea. My only experience sailing was as a kid, in my late grandfather's small sailboat around San Diego harbor... Maybe one of our more nautically-knowledgeable members an shed some light on this.

Regards,

Chris