vikingsword?!? ID needed

Lee · 2nd October 2010, 02:52 PM

Here is the listing for the katzbalger with recycled early Medieval blade from the catalog of edged weapons in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zurich.

I am still looking for a slide I made of it...

Lee · 3rd October 2010, 04:09 PM

Every time I look at the pictures I see something different and it is not always the effect of different monitors. Do I correctly perceive a trace of a fuller where I have placed the two green lines or is this just imaginings?

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Every time I look at the pictures I see something different and it is not always the effect of different monitors. Do I correctly perceive a trace of a fuller where I have placed the two green lines or is this just imaginings?

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Very well possible, Jim,

In any case it seems to be a 'wurmbunte Klinge' that may well be as early as the 5th or 6th century. Higher contrasted close up pics would sure help a lot.

Perhaps the attachament will be useful.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Very well possible, Jim,

In any case it seems to be a 'wurmbunte Klinge' and may well be as early as the 5th or 6th century. Higher contrasted close up pics would sure help a lot.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 7th October 2010, 07:46 PM

Cornelis,

Please look at the pommel of the Landsknecht dagger in the attached picture, ex Harold L. Peterson collection (Christie's, 1978), ca. 1535, sold Bonhams, 29 April 2010.

This is exactly what the pommel of your relic Katzbalger originally looked like.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 7th October 2010, 08:18 PM

Hi Michael,
of course Iam very familiar with this type of pommel, I had a landsknecht sword with a developed hilt in my collection with exactly the same pommel.(I will try to find a picture of it)
however I must say it is not the same pommel as the excavated sword has.
in combination The strong tapering tang, the lack of a ricasso, the shoulder of blade had fitted into the cross block, the spatulate point and parallel edges makes me date this sword (much) earlier then the 16thC. but when I really don't know, how can one tell?

best regards

Matchlock · 8th October 2010, 12:19 PM

You asked how one could tell?

By 30 years of studying and experience.

based on 300,000 photos taken in the best museums and their reserve collections, plus a private library comprising 3,000 books and catalogs.
There also were Katzbalgers with single edged blades, as well as Katzbalger sabers, especially in the later period of that type of Landsknecht swords, so your blade is not unusual at all.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 04:53 PM

Hi Lee,

Great idea to post that Swiss piece with the recycled blade (German 'wurmbunte Klinge'). This of course is the characteristic form of a Katzbalger and somewhat earlier than our piece in question, about 1515-20.
Cornelistromp's sample can be assigned to ca. 1535-40 when single edged blades came into use with Katzbalgers as well. It sure was one of the latest of its kind. The German Pfalzgraf Ottheinrich, friend and look-alike of Henry VIII, was portayed bearing a Katzbalger with this kind of pommel in 1535 if I am not fooled by my memory.

I tried to share my pics of the Zurich piece but my scanner quit service this morning ...

Best,
Michael

2nd October 2010, 02:52 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Reference from Schneider (1980) Here is the listing for the katzbalger with recycled early Medieval blade from the catalog of edged weapons in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zurich. I am still looking for a slide I made of it... Attached Images

3rd October 2010, 04:09 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Seeing things? Every time I look at the pictures I see something different and it is not always the effect of different monitors. Do I correctly perceive a trace of a fuller where I have placed the two green lines or is this just imaginings? Attached Images

7th October 2010, 07:46 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Cornelis, Please look at the pommel of the Landsknecht dagger in the attached picture, ex Harold L. Peterson collection (Christie's, 1978), ca. 1535, sold Bonhams, 29 April 2010. This is exactly what the pommel of your relic Katzbalger originally looked like. Best, Michael Attached Images

8th October 2010, 12:19 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	You asked how one could tell? By 30 years of studying and experience. based on 300,000 photos taken in the best museums and their reserve collections, plus a private library comprising 3,000 books and catalogs. There also were Katzbalgers with single edged blades, as well as Katzbalger sabers, especially in the later period of that type of Landsknecht swords, so your blade is not unusual at all. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 8th October 2010 at 03:26 PM.

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7th October 2010, 08:18 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, of course Iam very familiar with this type of pommel, I had a landsknecht sword with a developed hilt in my collection with exactly the same pommel.(I will try to find a picture of it) however I must say it is not the same pommel as the excavated sword has. in combination The strong tapering tang, the lack of a ricasso, the shoulder of blade had fitted into the cross block, the spatulate point and parallel edges makes me date this sword (much) earlier then the 16thC. but when I really don't know, how can one tell? best regards

3rd October 2010, 04:53 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Lee, Great idea to post that Swiss piece with the recycled blade (German 'wurmbunte Klinge'). This of course is the characteristic form of a Katzbalger and somewhat earlier than our piece in question, about 1515-20. Cornelistromp's sample can be assigned to ca. 1535-40 when single edged blades came into use with Katzbalgers as well. It sure was one of the latest of its kind. The German Pfalzgraf Ottheinrich, friend and look-alike of Henry VIII, was portayed bearing a Katzbalger with this kind of pommel in 1535 if I am not fooled by my memory. I tried to share my pics of the Zurich piece but my scanner quit service this morning ... Best, Michael