good day

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2010, 09:46 PM

Great fun Lew. I am going to hit straight back with this. The new book "Panga na visu. Manfred A Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Which has the similarity in form? while I look for more. Does not look like Indonesian engraving to me.

Lew · 5th June 2010, 10:20 PM

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Just saw this....well reasoned suggestion....the rounded blade on this does resemble something seen in European hunting trousse, and with the prevalent European presence colonially in these West African regions certainly would present potential for such case.

yuanzhumin · 6th June 2010, 03:30 AM

This is not my usual field of expertise but one thing stroke me: the ressemblance of the pattern on the blade of this hunting knife with the traditional pattern of the ancestor snake on the Paiwan swords from Taiwan. As Jim mentioned, this could well be an African python.
If you go to my recent post about a Paiwan knife on Ebay, I'm sure that when looking at the snake on the scabbard, you will see what I mean. I don't think this kind of pattern would be found on a French hunting knife but for sure it could be on an African hunting knife with a strong colonial french influence. Or, even, it could be also an authentic French hunting knife that would have travelled to Africa with its original owner before being passed to a local owner that could have added some design of its own. Just my guess.

Lew · 6th June 2010, 05:45 AM

The lotus symbol seems to be a form of The Fleur-de-Lis the snake often represents civil war or rebellion against the king in French culture. I am still leaning towards a French hunting trousse. The iron work seems far too good on the guard to be West African. Here is an example of an 18th century French trousse notice the lotus design on the blade at the left and the birds head pommel on the one on the right.

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2010, 11:27 AM

Yes I can see a slight resemblance to the round end hunting/table knives. However I just cannot see this in anyway made to the taste of the more affluent {European cultural origin} people that would use elaborate hunting knives. The engraving to me is just not right. Something about it reminds me of the engraving seen on Nigerian arm knives with the brass scabbards and brass arm band.
I have to admit the second heavier quillon is very European looking. But I cannot see it as any more sophisticated than much familiar African work. I have a few more pictures. Although the pommels end here with is a lion? head. The form and construction of the handles have a lot in common especially the ferrule before the quillions. They are even decorated in the same manner. As a Benin knife it would be top quality and to me it looks very awkward as European work. What ever it is I like it and good fun thrashing it out.

The pictures are from- black background "De fer et de fierte" Jan Elsen, musse Barbier-Mueller. The other "Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen" Manfred A Zirngibl.

Lew · 6th June 2010, 03:13 PM

Tim

The piece on the left is of European manufacture and has been embellished tribally. So it is possible that the knife we are discussing was engraved in Africa but it's original manufature was done in Europe.

RSWORD · 6th June 2010, 03:19 PM

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2010, 10:28 PM

I go with Tim on this....the blade with a latchback, stepped distal end and with very unusual rebated point resembles Dahomean weapons (often of the ceremonial form shown by Tim in last post) and often termed 'hwi' (as described in Palau Marti). The geometric motif resembles symbolism that seems familiar in West African material culture, along with seems to possibly represent a snake head ? The python was a key figure in the folk religions there.
There seems an almost undefined similarity in the highly stylized pommel to the mysterious and equally highly stylized pommel of the flyssa. This however does seem more like a birdhead, while that of the flyssa seems to be perhaps, as sometimes suggested, a camel. In any case, the diffusion of these themes between Saharan and West African cultures via trade route traffic is pretty well established.

5th June 2010, 09:46 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	Great fun Lew. I am going to hit straight back with this. The new book "Panga na visu. Manfred A Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Which has the similarity in form? while I look for more. Does not look like Indonesian engraving to me. Attached Images

5th June 2010, 10:20 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it. Attached Images

6th June 2010, 05:45 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The lotus symbol seems to be a form of The Fleur-de-Lis the snake often represents civil war or rebellion against the king in French culture. I am still leaning towards a French hunting trousse. The iron work seems far too good on the guard to be West African. Here is an example of an 18th century French trousse notice the lotus design on the blade at the left and the birds head pommel on the one on the right. Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 6th June 2010 at 06:31 AM.

6th June 2010, 11:27 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	Yes I can see a slight resemblance to the round end hunting/table knives. However I just cannot see this in anyway made to the taste of the more affluent {European cultural origin} people that would use elaborate hunting knives. The engraving to me is just not right. Something about it reminds me of the engraving seen on Nigerian arm knives with the brass scabbards and brass arm band. I have to admit the second heavier quillon is very European looking. But I cannot see it as any more sophisticated than much familiar African work. I have a few more pictures. Although the pommels end here with is a lion? head. The form and construction of the handles have a lot in common especially the ferrule before the quillions. They are even decorated in the same manner. As a Benin knife it would be top quality and to me it looks very awkward as European work. What ever it is I like it and good fun thrashing it out. The pictures are from- black background "De fer et de fierte" Jan Elsen, musse Barbier-Mueller. The other "Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen" Manfred A Zirngibl. Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

6th June 2010, 03:30 AM	#4
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	This is not my usual field of expertise but one thing stroke me: the ressemblance of the pattern on the blade of this hunting knife with the traditional pattern of the ancestor snake on the Paiwan swords from Taiwan. As Jim mentioned, this could well be an African python. If you go to my recent post about a Paiwan knife on Ebay, I'm sure that when looking at the snake on the scabbard, you will see what I mean. I don't think this kind of pattern would be found on a French hunting knife but for sure it could be on an African hunting knife with a strong colonial french influence. Or, even, it could be also an authentic French hunting knife that would have travelled to Africa with its original owner before being passed to a local owner that could have added some design of its own. Just my guess.

6th June 2010, 03:13 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim The piece on the left is of European manufacture and has been embellished tribally. So it is possible that the knife we are discussing was engraved in Africa but it's original manufature was done in Europe.

6th June 2010, 03:19 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Lew, Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

5th June 2010, 10:28 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,477	I go with Tim on this....the blade with a latchback, stepped distal end and with very unusual rebated point resembles Dahomean weapons (often of the ceremonial form shown by Tim in last post) and often termed 'hwi' (as described in Palau Marti). The geometric motif resembles symbolism that seems familiar in West African material culture, along with seems to possibly represent a snake head ? The python was a key figure in the folk religions there. There seems an almost undefined similarity in the highly stylized pommel to the mysterious and equally highly stylized pommel of the flyssa. This however does seem more like a birdhead, while that of the flyssa seems to be perhaps, as sometimes suggested, a camel. In any case, the diffusion of these themes between Saharan and West African cultures via trade route traffic is pretty well established.