Allure of the Core

[mross]

I would like to have a discussion on the Allure of the Core. What is it about these blades that we find so alluring? They seem to have true multi-cultural allure, but for the purposes of this thread I want to stick to Philippine weapons. I have referenced some from the list here;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore

Rather then waste space for a discussion of reasons for twist core, I’ll refer you to Manfred Sachses book “Damascus Steel”.


I have an opinion that the twistcore is somewhat of a contradiction in the Moro’s exhibiting of status.
Here is a interesting point of contradiction; The Moro’s used the handle as the sign of a higher cast persons blade, reference the silver and ivory and other exotic handle material and shapes. The scabbards to some degree showed status too. The underlining theme here is the parts that could be observed without the blade being drawn where how the Moro’s showed status. The question then becomes why so much attention to the blade for twisted core? It would be a very time consuming and expensive task. Even today’s smiths charge quite a bit to do it. I have observed some twisted core that don’t exhibit the status type handle. So again why? It seems unlikely that a lower status person would have the funds to buy a twist core blade, if he was a high status person then the handle would show it. Some possibilities;
1) One observation is that the older archaic type blades with twist core do not seem to have the elaborate status handles. It is possible that these archaic blades regardless of blade types do not have the status handle. Does anyone have information on this? It would be an interesting area of study to see when the status handles came into vogue. If this proves to be the case then that information is helpful in dating blades. It is also possible the status handles where more sedate, status being shown by materials and not elaborate styles.
2) The handle is a rehilt(We have seen this in a thread I started ).
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11599
There can be many reasons for this but first and foremost is probably money.

I have a hypothesis that the twist core billets where an import item and not locally made. Another hypothesis is that there was one region that made them and then traded the billets. Using some what flawed logic, if a local smith had his shop set up to do it why don’t we see more? I think it very unlikely that these where made in a haphazard way. It’s unlikely that a Datu, or other high status person would go to a smith that has never made a twistcore and hence does not have his shop set up for it and say make me one. Lots of question but no answers. Thoughts?

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Some of my thoughts on this...

I don't think there is any additional setup needed to do twist core once a smith can do simple lamination. If he can do forge welding and produce laminated blades, then he possesses the tools for twist core. The only thing I can think of restricting the widespread use of twist core is the skill and time needed to do it successfully, without cold shuts and without wasting material.

There is also another economic and marketing consideration. Twist core can be marketed as a luxury item, and as such bring a higher return. If twist core blades are produced in limited quantity, then they remain luxury items.

I wouldn't limit the twist core blade to a "status" piece. It could just have been a high quality fighting blade for whoever could afford it, without any social and cultural constraints associated with "status". The large and finely decorated hilts, however, were obviously intended to be shown and seen.

As to what is alluring about these blades, they're just beautiful and out of the ordinary. I think any pattern in metal is quite attractive and its revelation upon etching or polishing can seem magical.

For cultures of Islamic faith, the flowing water-like pattern of lamination/patterning and dendritic structures are especially important IIRC.

Emanuel

[Rick]

And I would bet that hilts started to increase in size as the 19th Century progressed .

[A. G. Maisey]

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

[mross]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

Alan,
You are spot on, for the reason for Pattern Welding. The history of it is nicely delt with in Manfred Sachse's book referenced in the original post. It is still costly which was what I was getting at. The books I have read stated the Philippino showed their wealth/status with the handle, not the blade. Which is a reason you see elaborate handles with mediocre blades. So why the switch from handle to blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris.

However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris.

Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator?

Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris?

Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years.

Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time.

I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule.

This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.

[Battara]

2 things about status kris:

a) datus had several kris, which meant that the "status" kris were not used as much for battle but for statement of wealth and status wear

b) the twistcore kris declined over time perhaps in part because of the increased use of other weapons (like modern firearms) and thus not as needed, and perhaps the technique even forgotten in the beginning of the 20th century.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Battara, that sounds reasonable.

In other places where elaborate manipulated patterns in blade material emerged, those pattern welded blades tended to decrease in number, or to disappear, when better quality material became readily available for weapons.

This was not the case in some areas of Indonesia, where the patterns had a social and talismanic application, rather than a weapon application.

[Rick]

Which brings us to a crux (IMO) .

What are we to make of this ?
This Kris is how old ?

(It has been polished by Philip)

What class ?

Dressed as a combat blade, IMO .

Fancy, or functional ?

Is this pamor as known in the Indonesian/Malay sense ??

[Battara]

I agree that this particular kris is probably earlier and rehilted at a later date by I would think some one or a family who did not have the same means as earlier in their history. Why rehilt?

1. Damage to the original hilt?

2. Need for the family later to sell off the expensive materials and replace with lesser?

In most cases the family would want to keep the blade since it has a spirit of it's own - the dress is of somewhat lesser value spiritually (though not to the same extent as the Indonesians).

These are my thoughts on this piece.

[A. G. Maisey]

Rick, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the major indicators of an early blade was its size:- smaller blades, sometimes about the same as a Bali blade size were supposedly older.

As to pamor, this blade looks like it has a steel core.

If this is so, I would certainly be happy in calling the pattern welded outer skin of the blade "pamor".

Even if it did not have a core, I feel that the name "pamor" is still OK, as the word has the idea of "mix" inherent in it, and this material is definitely mixed.

[mross]

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree that this particular kris is probably earlier and rehilted at a later date by I would think some one or a family who did not have the same means as earlier in their history. Why rehilt?

1. Damage to the original hilt?

2. Need for the family later to sell off the expensive materials and replace with lesser?

In most cases the family would want to keep the blade since it has a spirit of it's own - the dress is of somewhat lesser value spiritually (though not to the same extent as the Indonesians).

These are my thoughts on this piece.

I agree with Jose on this. It would appear to be a re-hilt. But I suspect not very recent. The silver wire weave is beautiful. The piece is top-notch, Rick you been holding out on us? Why I think the hilt job is older. There seems to be a definite scarcity of anyone who can do the weave.

[mross]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Rick, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the major indicators of an early blade was its size:- smaller blades, sometimes about the same as a Bali blade size were supposedly older.

As to pamor, this blade looks like it has a steel core.

If this is so, I would certainly be happy in calling the pattern welded outer skin of the blade "pamor".

Even if it did not have a core, I feel that the name "pamor" is still OK, as the word has the idea of "mix" inherent in it, and this material is definitely mixed.

Alan,
Yes, your read correctly. I have several of the archaic style blades. They almost seem like toys they are so small. In fact I have a large budik that is the same size if not a bit bigger then the whole sword, and a keris that comes real close. I believe a real short history is the keris evolving into the archaic style kris, then these became progressively bigger as they evolved into the current weapon we call a kris.

[Rick]

One might posit that the changes occurred during the centuries after the Spanish arrived .

As for that blade, being the guy who can hold it; IMO it's contemporary to the dress .
The blade was varnished .

Alan, why do you think the twists are laid on a plain core ?

I thought the edge was inserted .

I am no metallurgist nor smith I freely admit .

[kai]

Hello Rick,

As for that blade, being the guy who can hold it; IMO it's contemporary to the dress .

I think your kris is turn of the century (or late 19th c.) and would think that the pommel is possibly original (maybe there never was a ferrule or it went missing). Seems like a datu working piece to me - clearly showing status but not too fancy to get in the way...

Obviously, the smith tried to obtain the typical twistcore pattern but the layers appear a bit blurred and distorted; not top-notch craftmanship but certainly better than what almost all of us would be able to accomplish with traditional bladesmith equipment!

Alan, why do you think the twists are laid on a plain core ?

I thought the edge was inserted .

It doesn't make sense to insert an edge for a double-edged blade and even most/many single-edged Indonesian blades seem to be made of 3 sandwiched layers (pamor/steel core/pamor): Usually you can make out the steel core for the edge along the spine, too.

I have yet to see a laminated Moro kris blade which hasn't been done in such a sandwich (San Mai) way; same-o with traditional keris blades (noting the more recent, non-functional exceptions without any steel core).

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I did say "core", didn't I?

Rick, from the photo I can't tell if the steel edges are formed by a piece of steel running all the way through, or by edges being welded in. Both methods are used in keris construction in the Indonesian produced blades.

Where an edge is welded in, rather than provided by use of the sandwich method, the pamor material and the edge material are brought together as two "V"'s, and then welded.


Let me try to be a little more precise:-

this blade appears to have edges of steel that protrude from material that has been manipulated by twisting; I would be happy to call the manipulated material pamor.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Where an edge is welded in, rather than provided by use of the sandwich method, the pamor material and the edge material are brought together as two "V"'s, and then welded.

There is an artifact on one side of the point that suggests this; a small Y shaped cold shut .

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, could be indicative, but I've never been able to tell what method was used in a blade that was in good condition. When blades are in very poor condition you can sometimes tell, mostly by being able to see into the sorsoran.

[Rick]

Speaking of that Alan, do you see the suggestion of keris like features with the placement of the twists ?

I kinda thought so; but it might just be me .

[A. G. Maisey]

Not quite sure what you mean by that Rick.

[Rick]

Reflected in the separation of the individual elements at the base; plain and twisted; and how they all join together further down suggesting the sculptural elements of a keris blade in a way .

I always kind of read this blade's pattern as reflecting that .

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I see what you mean.

I doubt that anybody could deny the relationship between between the Moro style keris and Javanese keris when they see something such as can be seen in the construction of this blade.