PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

[Moshah]

Oh is it...

No wonder I can still recall that kinatah works.

However in that recent post about this keris, the hilt was not really featured, so this is the first close-up isn't it?

Nice hilt. Also now I learned that this kind of hilt is not necessarily means it's a palembang made.

What a cultural entwined we have here...

[kai]

Hello Pak Ganja,

The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below)

Probably damar (or more precisely a traditional mix based on damar resin) which is quite commonly found on Sumatran/Malay keris. Could also be shellac but I'd consider this a non-traditional material for attaching a hilt.

The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material.

Yes, looks like a pressure fit enhanced with a thin layer of resin. This can be very tight, especially when rust has developed.

The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition.

Yes, the pesi looks perfectly fine for a keris Palembang. From the corrosion, the tip doesn't look recently shortened, doesn't it?

I'm less certain about the ganja though: Not only does the metalwork look much more crisp than the blade but also the hole for the pesi seems to have much less corrosion than the pesi...

Regards,
Kai

[Jean]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganjawulung,
I was facing the same problem as yourself with 2 Bugis blades needing warangan and fitted with large ivory hilts strongly stuck to the peksi. I tried in vain to loose them by heating with a candle or small gas lighter and it did not work (I was probably not patient enough).
Today I decided to test a new strategy, namely to insert and heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C, and it worked very well for the 2 hilts without any damage. The hilts were glued with traditional dark brown resin and not epoxy glue of course. It took me about 10 minutes to release the first hilt, and 5 for the second as the oven was still hot...
The advantage of this method is that the hilt is progressively and uniformely heated at the desired temperature unlike with a flame (ivory is a poorly conductive material), so there is less risk of cracking it... My concern was that the peksi would expand more than the hole with heat and could cause a crack to the hilt, but it fortunately did not occur and I feel fully confident to repeat the experience if needed.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by Jean

heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C

Keris food channel.. Now i had heard everything..

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

Dear Alan,
I did break one ivory hilt while trying to remove it after heating it and the sorsoran with a hair dryer set at maximum temperature (probably not hot enough) but I think that it was broken before and re-glued.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

Alan,
Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!
I would not expect that heating & cooling progressively a blade to 120°C could have any effect on the steel blade, do you? But exposing it to a naked gas flame like Pak Ganja could be more harmful?
For our education, would you please tell us which types of Javanese woods should not be exposed to sunlight?
Thanks and best regards
Jean
Jean

[ganjawulung]

Thanks to you, for all the advice,

@sajen: no, I won't give warangan to this blade. Or maybe yes, but not with "javanese way" of soaking method.
@shahrial: yes, agree. Palembang once used to be the centre of the sumatran keris, unfortunately many -- or if not almost all -- palembang kerises have almost all "gone to peninsula". I've chatted a lot with Karaeng in facebook, that according to him, offers of great sums of money from penninsula is really very tempting for everyone there... great money. Karaeng is only among few Palembang area people (he stays in Lampung, you know it already) who still maintains the family heirloom. Interesting collection...
@kai: yes, kai, it was more damar resin than 'javanese' method of shellac. More pressure fit, enhanced by rusty pesi and layer of damar resin. Much easier to remove javanese pressure fit hilts...
On the 'later ganja', with different metal material. Don't you think this keris was intentionally fitted with 'ganja wulung'?
@jean: I must agree with Alan. Not to brave enough to experiment in blade heating on oven. Heating the blade at such heat, of course not-not harming the blade...

Anyway, thanks to you all..
GANJAWULUNG

[kai]

Hello Jean,

Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!

While metal is usually very forgiving, organic materials utilized for fittings (wood, horn, bone/stag, ivory, MOP, etc.) is susceptible to shifts in temperature and, especially, humidity. This could result in short-term damages like cracks but also long-time preservation might be affected... I'd strongly recomment to stick with the traditional candle approach (preferably blocking the hilt from radiating heat with a padded glove) and lots of patience (i.e. many cycles to loosen up a "stubborn" blade). Alan has worked on many more blades than me and if he says this method succeeds then this should be good enough.

I would not expect that heating & cooling progressively a blade to 120°C could have any effect on the steel blade, do you?

No, completely harmless.

But exposing it to a naked gas flame like Pak Ganja could be more harmful?

IMHO the main problem is the not-so-local application of the heat as well as the much more intense radiating heat possibly affecting the hilt.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Pak Ganja,

On the 'later ganja', with different metal material. Don't you think this keris was intentionally fitted with 'ganja wulung'?

You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

I rest my case.

The blade is made of iron and steel and possibly nickel or other contrasting material. Only the steel is affected by heat treatment to harden during manufacture, and most blades are not hardened closer to the gonjo than about 6 or 7 cm. at most; often it is only the first few centis that are hardened, since the application of heat to remove a hilt is restricted to the sorsoran, the part of the blade that gets hot has not been hardened, which means that nothing short of red heat will affect that part of the blade --- of course, if you took it to red heat, the hardness further down the blade would be drawn because it would go into blue/yellow or higher, if it went higher than blue/yellow you would lose the hardness.

The way I work is to hold the hilt in one hand and the bare blade about 12 centis from the gonjo with the other hand. When the blade gets uncomfortably hot I take it away from the heat for a couple of minutes, then return it when it is cooler.

Working like this I can control the heat 100% and at the same time I can feel if the hilt itself is getting too hot, bear in mind that my hand is shielding the hilt from direct heat, any heat I can feel in the hilt is coming from the pesi.

When at home I use a propane torch with a relatively bushy flame that I hold in a vice and I pass the blade backwards and forth across the flame and alternate the sides, I can usually get 99% of hilts off in a few minutes, the very, very few that are stubborn get the heat/cool/heat/cool treatment over a number of days until they surrender.

When I'm in Solo I use either a little kerrosene lamp or a candle and play the flame directly and steadily onto the blade, when it comes time to try to separate blade and hilt I use an old bit of rag to grip the blade.

Using the lamp or the candle it is totally impossible to get the blade hot enough to do it any damage at all.

Using the propane torch it would be very easy for an inexperienced person to draw the blade hardness.

My concerns with hair dryers, ovens, boiling water , mirrors reflecting the sun's rays, geothermal heat, room heaters, etc, etc, etc is not that they will harm the blade material, but that because the heat cannot be localised and directed to a sufficiently small area, that heat will inevitably heat the hilt, and it will cause damage to some degree.

In respect of wood used for keris hilts.

It is recognised that it is not good for any wood to be exposed to direct sunlight, as the heat can cause cracking.However, the one wood which must never be exposed to heat or sunlight is tayuman. Another wood that is very susceptable to heat and moisture change is burl teak ( jati gembol). This wood moves and cracks can open up in it because of the movement.

Really, its just common sense:- nobody would consider for a moment that it was OK to place a piece of antique furniture in direct sunlight. Do this on a hot day and you could come back to something where all the joints had loosened and cracks had opened in the polished surfaces --- you might get away with it a couple times, but sooner or later you'll ruin something. So you just don't take the risk. No different with the wood used for keris dress. The caution should not be limited to only antique dress:- make a few enquiries of modern custom knifemakers and see how many will gaurantee natural materials in hilts and scabbards against cracking or distortion.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by Jean

Alan,
Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!

I'm not a conservator, but I extremely horrified by what you have done!

Though 120 degrees will do no damage to the blade, spare a thought for the hilt, for it is also an integral part of a complete keris. A good old hilt is a record of the carving skills and aesthetics of a period past. Destroying it is like burning books.

[Jean]

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

Dear Alan,
Yes, I knew the risk but carefully analyzed it beforehand and took my chance, I will elaborate more about it, thank you for the detailed description of your procedure and I will try it next time.
Best regards
Jean

[Jean]

Originally Posted by BluErf

I'm not a conservator, but I extremely horrified by what you have done!

Though 120 degrees will do no damage to the blade, spare a thought for the hilt, for it is also an integral part of a complete keris. A good old hilt is a record of the carving skills and aesthetics of a period past. Destroying it is like burning books.

Hello BluErf,
I am not a conservator nor a conservative person myself but I take the full responsibility of what I have done and I will try to explain why:
Let me first say that the 2 hilts in question (pictures 6.1 and 6.3 in my hilt book) are extremely precious to me and that I did not make this experiment before a careful risk analysis. Hilt # 6.1 is made from hippo ivory and 6.3 from dugong ivory I think and both of them have a particularly dense and homogenous structure with virtually no cracks.
Ivory is considered as an organic material but actually it is mostly inorganic, containing about 55% of calcium and some magnesium phosphate, the rest bein collagen material. This is obviously a very positive factor regarding the heat resistance of the material (I looked for some info on Internet about the heat resistance of ivory but did not find anything).
I took full advantage of the failed steaming experience performed by Pak Ganja to draw 2 conclusions:
1. Ivory is not affected by exposure to a temperature of 100 °C in fully humid conditions (humidity is considered as very harmful for ivory).
2. A temperature of 100 °C (or may be a little less) is not sufficient to soften the gluing resin around the peksi hole.
My conclusion is that for softening the resin, you need to heat the peksi and peksi hole (i.e the inside of the hilt) to a temperature above 100°C.
As my previous experiences with a candle failed due to insufficient heat flux or lack of patience and I have no kerosene lamp or equivalent, I decided to heat the whole blade into the oven set on hot air circulation and heated progressively for avoiding temperature peaks and thermal stresses on the hilt.
As compared to the traditional heating method with a flame, the main difference is that the hilt is also subject to the same temperature as the blade, i.e. 120°c maximum, but as I said and from my grinded teeth experience at the dentist, I felt confident that the ivory hilt could safely withstand it without damage. A positive factor of the oven procedure in my opinion is that there is no thermal gradient across the hilt as with a flame (120°C at the peksi hole or inside of the hilt and ambient on the outside as ivory is a highly insulating material).
To date I guarantee you that there not the slightest sign of damage or decay to the hilts, but if anyting wrong appears in future I will advise the forum accordingly and apologize for my mistake (no progress is made without daring break the tradition).
Still extremely horrified?
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by kai

You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

IMHO, Palembang style was much influenced to javanese style. We could still see until now, many old Palembang blades are sometimes quite similar to javanese blades. A ganjawulung fixed to a blade, is quite common in Java. And I think it could be common to Palembang style too.

(Images below, the more complete picture of my Palembang keris, with another silver pendokok...)

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

And another close up of the hilt and the silver pendokok...

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Ganjawulung,

IMHO, Cirebonese hilts are the most flexible. It can match any Javanese blade and Wrangka, or Malay blade and sarung..... even Buginese's.

[ganjawulung]

Yes, Penangsang,

Agree. If you have a Segaluh keris -- with the specific protruding gandhik with sekar kacang -- it is difficult to get a match pairing with javanese (solonese, or jogjanese) hilt. But almost certain, will match with Cirebon hilt. Especially the "buta" hilt...

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Pak Ganjawulung,

can you show us a closeup view from the hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

[ganjawulung]

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

Thank you, very fine and dilly carved hilt and doesn't disturb the overall impression of the ensemble even it is from Cirebon.

[Unkiemonk]

Hi all,
Hoping this thread may find some new activity as it touches on carving styles of the Lampung region. I acquired what I believe to be a late 18th century south Sumatran war canoe prow some time ago and have had some degree of trouble confirming its place of manufacture. After stumbling across this thread and references to hilts of the Lampung region in Gaspard de Narval’s ‘Ukiran’, the stylistic similarities between the prow and the Jawa Demam hilts of Lampung are the closest I have yet identified. To me, the spiral eyes and wing motif are the most similar stylistic traits to that seen on the Lampung hilts, though this may be way off the mark.The shortage of texts on Lampung carving styles/motifs has left me a little frustrated, so I was hoping for any and all suggestions or thoughts on the prow, including suggested reading.

Any thoughts on tribal origin, motif (Garuda?), symbolism, type of timber (Teak?), or age, would be greatly appreciated. Some incised decoration depicting a bull/buffalo, centipede and possibly a scorpion appear on the neck of the prow (unsure of their symbolic meaning).
Many thanks,

Unk

[IMG]www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721025/[/IMG]

[David]

Oh, i see you already saw this thread.
I believe most of these hilts are either Palembang or Cirebon, not Lampung.
As for you attachments, they need to be added directly to this site via our Manage Attachments button. Thanks...

[Rick]

^^^
This .
We need pictures for the archive; not links .

Links die and then the thread becomes useless .

[ganjawulung]

More on Palembang hulu and keris...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

More on Palembang hulu and keris...

Hello Ganjawulung,

very nice handles and blades! Are the pendokos on the left and right old or new ones?

Best regards,

Detlef

[ganjawulung]

Old ones, dear Detlef. I hope you could see the different yellow of those golds. Not dark yellow, but light yellow... Later I would post the close ups.

Thks
GANJAWULUNG