Chinsese weapons : need some ID

[yuanzhumin]

A friend of mine picked these weapons in a flea market in Shanghai. I'm posting for him. He would like to know more about them. Can you help ?
Thanks.

[bluelake]

The sword on the far left looks a lot like a British naval cutlass.

[kisak]

The swords with knuckle bows might be hudiedao, possibly butterfly sword in English (I'm not sure what the exact definitions of those terms are, nor of they are exactly the same for the two words). The swords with the tips bent back into hooks are generally called just hook swords, I don't know hat the Chinese term would be. The remaining item looks a bit like something I've seen called a "claw spear" (attaching a picture of it), but I can't really see any claws in the same way on the one you posted.

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely done Kisak! I just wanted to commend you for your contribution here. Even though these Chinese weapons are not your field of study, and you were uncertain of terminology, you still posted and tried to help. This is the kind of fortitude I personally admire, and wish were more prevalent.

I remain amazed at the often astounding number of views per thread vs. the proportially paltry number of responses, and think of the almost standard 'lurking' refrain, 'I didnt know enough about the subject, and was afraid to post'...{my thoughts being, for fear of what? }

My compliments Sir

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by bluelake

The sword on the far left looks a lot like a British naval cutlass.

Excellent observation Bluelake, and indeed these varying proportion hudeie dao do reflect the European influence that became quite common in many weapons in colonial periods, especially in China in this case 19th century.
The key element is of course the knuckleguard, and while the prevalent number of these seem situated in the 19th century, used for double handed combat techniques in martial arts of various schools, there is I believe evidence of these as early as 18th century.

The 'hook swords' are of much more ancient lineage traditionally, but were still present in later martial arts weaponry.

These Chinese weapons are not in my field of study either (see previous post) and I was interested to see the responses on these before checking resources and doing some research in order to write on them. Although I do not have a huge library here in the 'bookmobile', I have found the search function here as well as the wonders of the computer astounding in giving me the information which is transformed into knowledge, which I share by posting, always hoping for the readers out there to follow in kind.

Thank you Bluelake as well, for posting and participating. Every observation is important, as we can never know what thing becomes a key direction in study.

Best regards,
JIm

[fearn]

I'd suggest that the spear may be simply the head of what they call a "halberd" in English. The sabers could all be hudiedaos.

I suspect these are fairly recent wushu weapons, especially the hooks. Perhaps no one was posting, not from lack of knowledge, but from a concern that recent, poorly stored weapons might be passed off as antiques.

F

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

I'd suggest that the spear may be simply the head of what they call a "halberd" in English. The sabers could all be hudiedaos.

I suspect these are fairly recent wushu weapons, especially the hooks. Perhaps no one was posting, not from lack of knowledge, but from a concern that recent, poorly stored weapons might be passed off as antiques.

F

Very good point Fearn! and that is indeed a valid reason especially as we know that the production of 'antique' weapons has become a prolific cottage industry in China. Thank you for the observations, and in these kinds of cases, rather than making precise assessments of the weapons presented it is often better to address the weapon forms themselves from a historic perspective. Adding information on other known examples as well as suggestions for reference and identification that are known is also very helpful. I'd like to think of these threads as a sort of think tank for the study of historic weapons which I think is characteristically pretty well done here most of the time.......you are another who always adds helpful and very useful input constantly.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Yuanzhamin,
As I mentioned, this is far outside my usual field of study, but I did come across some note cards, and I think searching with the feature here will reveal earlier discussions discussing some of these.

The shafted arms with the crescent type blades are apparantly termed 'shuang gou' or double hook swords, or ye liang shuang gou; colloquially paired moon hooks (hopefully these versions of whatever terms are used in Chinese are reasonably close). The form itself, as noted, seems to derive from ancient types as early as Spring & Autumn period (770-221BC). These were used in pairs and ideal for dismounting horsemen, although they apprarantly were not military, but civilian weapons.

I believe these may also be termed double head tiger swords (Hu Tou Shuang Gou), but cannot be certain. One of the first known illustrations (in the west) of these was in an English newspaper, "The Graphic" March 3,1877.
In these times, keen awareness of China was becoming even more pronounced and civilian martial artists had become a virtual security type industry. Groups and organizations of these martial artists were secured to protect residences, trade convoys and in many other situations. In many cases, numbers of these martial artists, in the sense of privateers, became predators themselves, and formed much of the ranks of the well known Chinese pirates.

The so called butterfly knives were also a predominant weapon of the martial artists and often the pirates. They occurred as noted, in varying sizes and degree of variation, but were, like the gou, used in pairs typically.

The unusual hafted weapon shown with the antlered skull seems another of the often unusual shaped items used, and seems to correspond to things I have seen but cannot recall exactly the source. I believe I have seen something similar in perhaps the Chinese reference by Werner (1930s) but dont have it here. These were line drawings and not sure how accurate, but the claw reference seems to be likely.

Without hands on examination, these weapons seem that they might have been part of a store of weapons of these martial artists on the latter 19th century, and most interesting examples.

All best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Gav has several pair of shuang gou that are exceptional. It seems that these are rarer than most other Chinese weapons and are not commonly seen. Also, unfortunately a lot of fakes out there (case in point, eBay just recently).

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Mark, these shuang gou are quite unusual to find, especially older ones! and Gav seems to have keen insight into both finding and authenticating these kinds of Chinese weapons. The 'antique production' industry in China continues to produce feverishly, running closely with that of India.

[Gavin Nugent]

Based on the image I can not say much other than the gou seem to be of a form that have been seen in the 1920-30 but could well be much newer.

Gav

[yuanzhumin]

Sorry for this long interruption. I've been following this thread, but I couldn 't post before as my computer broke down few days ago. This is terrible how we can become dependant from these things.
I have some new pictures of these weapons and some others from my friend that i will post later.

[yuanzhumin]

I finally dealt with my computer problem, and after catching back on a load of postponed matters, I'm coming back to the forum.
My friend is an eccentric artist that is spending some of his Sundays going around the Shanghai flea markets. He loves to pick up things, all kind of things. And, occasionally, he picked up some chinese blades that he loves. Here are new pics of some knives already seen here, and some other blades you didn't see yet.
Please, all your fascinating and expert comments are welcome.
All the best,
yuanzhumin

[Royston]

yuanzhumin

With regards to your last set of photos:-

I am certain the bayonet, far left, in the second photo is for the Japanese Arisaka.
The hooked weapons really look like "crow bars" with a cresent blade attached to them.

regards
Roy

[josh stout]

The top hudiedao looks genuine. Also the bottom one is a trousse knife (eating knife) from Eastern China, possibly of minority manufacture, recently made, but of good quality and probably in the wrong sheath. Everything else ranges from suspiciously unusual to almost certainly fake. A couple of the little knives could be genuine and were probably made for use rather than for tourists. Nevertheless, they look no older than early 20th c..

I suggest that your friend should be very careful in the street markets and not just pick up anything with an unusual shape that looks old. It can be an expensive way to get an education. Still, we are all learning, and there is no easy way to do it.
Josh