SPANISH BLADES 18TH C. -NEED ASSIST

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2024, 06:08 AM

We have had great discussions on Spanish swords of 17th-18th c.here over the years, and one of the recurring difficulties has been determining just how long the Toledo masters produced blades through the 17th century.....as well as how to determine which are authentically Toledo, or German productions using spurious Spanish markings.

I have been working on a project concerning the Spanish blades used in the colonies in New Spain, primarily in Spanish California (1780-1820).

It seems that though it is typically presumed from accounts that the swords
in use were with Toledo blades (esp. those with the 'Spanish motto'). In a quote from recollections of a caballero (Don Antonio Coronel) declared "..every man had a good Spanish blade from Toledo".

While that quote was from the 1830s, most of the blades circulating in California (by then Mexican California) were the Spanish dragoon blades on M1728 bilbo form from 1780s+

In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (1972, p.90) by Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain it states,
"...breakage of cavalry blades made at Toledo was not uncommon in the colonies, and requests from commanders in California indicate a preference for blades from Catelonia".

This is confirmed by records from the Santa Barbara presidio ("Arms and Armament of Presidios in California", Michael Hardwick, 2006);
1782....." ...swords of Toledo steel were tempered so highly that they would break if used carelessly". ?

Further specified were requests for blades from GERMANY, CATALONIA or VALENCIA.
In another reference the same year, again noted, "...the swords break into several pieces consequently they are considered of little use" and blades from GERMANY, BARCELONA or VALENCIA are ordered for repair.

THE DILEMMA:

While a great deal of material in English details Toledo makers, there is virtually nothing I can find on makers in Catalonia, Barcelona or Valencia.

Is there any information on these makers in the 18th century?
I know that the Toledo factory was not reopened until c. 1780, and a master from Valencia was the first to work there.......but beyond that ???????

In California in the 1780s and later, there was little warfare aside from skirmishes with Indian tribes, but no major conflict. So what were these guys doing to break swords?

Who were these other makers in Spain ??? references on markings? examples?

Sure would appreciate any help!!!

29th January 2024, 06:08 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	SPANISH BLADES 18TH C. -NEED ASSIST We have had great discussions on Spanish swords of 17th-18th c.here over the years, and one of the recurring difficulties has been determining just how long the Toledo masters produced blades through the 17th century.....as well as how to determine which are authentically Toledo, or German productions using spurious Spanish markings. I have been working on a project concerning the Spanish blades used in the colonies in New Spain, primarily in Spanish California (1780-1820). It seems that though it is typically presumed from accounts that the swords in use were with Toledo blades (esp. those with the 'Spanish motto'). In a quote from recollections of a caballero (Don Antonio Coronel) declared "..every man had a good Spanish blade from Toledo". While that quote was from the 1830s, most of the blades circulating in California (by then Mexican California) were the Spanish dragoon blades on M1728 bilbo form from 1780s+ In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (1972, p.90) by Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain it states, "...breakage of cavalry blades made at Toledo was not uncommon in the colonies, and requests from commanders in California indicate a preference for blades from Catelonia". This is confirmed by records from the Santa Barbara presidio ("Arms and Armament of Presidios in California", Michael Hardwick, 2006); 1782....." ...swords of Toledo steel were tempered so highly that they would break if used carelessly". ? Further specified were requests for blades from GERMANY, CATALONIA or VALENCIA. In another reference the same year, again noted, "...the swords break into several pieces consequently they are considered of little use" and blades from GERMANY, BARCELONA or VALENCIA are ordered for repair. THE DILEMMA: While a great deal of material in English details Toledo makers, there is virtually nothing I can find on makers in Catalonia, Barcelona or Valencia. Is there any information on these makers in the 18th century? I know that the Toledo factory was not reopened until c. 1780, and a master from Valencia was the first to work there.......but beyond that ??????? In California in the 1780s and later, there was little warfare aside from skirmishes with Indian tribes, but no major conflict. So what were these guys doing to break swords? Who were these other makers in Spain ??? references on markings? examples? Sure would appreciate any help!!!