Moroccan Saif with a British (?) Hanger Blade

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2017, 03:07 AM

Excellent Kubur!!! Thank you, here is the more well known fox from Birmingham with SH (Samuel Harvey) and thank you for the entry in the panel of markings.
* excellent note on the fluer de lis used in England as well! Is this from Gilkerson?

The fox without initials as I noted is in my opinion for John Dawes of Birmingham, but he did not initial his.

Trying to look back into discussions and research over the years on these sa'if, and the term 'nimcha/nimsha' which is not actually Arabic, but Persian loosely for half , or small sword. In many cases these are mounted with full length blades, so effectively a misnomer, but the 'nimcha' term is primarily a western term from collectors...locally they are sa'if.

There seems to have been a great deal of debate over classification of these hilts as to regional attribution, but none of it conclusive. For the most part the Buttin (1933) references to these swords is 'Arab', and the 'Zanzibari' assessment as far as a type of hilt is unsubstantiated.
There have been examples which have decoration corroborated with other material culture decoration, but these pertain to incidental case where a distinctly Zanzibar decorated example was at hand.

The loop guard is but one of it seems three hilt configurations, all are essentially Maghrebi.
One has the three drooping quillons; one has the loop guard over the blade at forte; the other has vertical 'pitones' extending from two drooping quillon terminals.
There do not seem to be pragmatic solutions as far as purposes for these other than design affectations. The ideas for blade catching etc are always at hand, but not well defined.

23rd November 2017, 03:07 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent Kubur!!! Thank you, here is the more well known fox from Birmingham with SH (Samuel Harvey) and thank you for the entry in the panel of markings. * excellent note on the fluer de lis used in England as well! Is this from Gilkerson? The fox without initials as I noted is in my opinion for John Dawes of Birmingham, but he did not initial his. Trying to look back into discussions and research over the years on these sa'if, and the term 'nimcha/nimsha' which is not actually Arabic, but Persian loosely for half , or small sword. In many cases these are mounted with full length blades, so effectively a misnomer, but the 'nimcha' term is primarily a western term from collectors...locally they are sa'if. There seems to have been a great deal of debate over classification of these hilts as to regional attribution, but none of it conclusive. For the most part the Buttin (1933) references to these swords is 'Arab', and the 'Zanzibari' assessment as far as a type of hilt is unsubstantiated. There have been examples which have decoration corroborated with other material culture decoration, but these pertain to incidental case where a distinctly Zanzibar decorated example was at hand. The loop guard is but one of it seems three hilt configurations, all are essentially Maghrebi. One has the three drooping quillons; one has the loop guard over the blade at forte; the other has vertical 'pitones' extending from two drooping quillon terminals. There do not seem to be pragmatic solutions as far as purposes for these other than design affectations. The ideas for blade catching etc are always at hand, but not well defined.