Kattara for comments

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2012, 04:25 AM

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Threaded Mode

14th March 2012, 04:25 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great. On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century. I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good. On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular. I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year. As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here. All the best, Jim