Africanised Sabre..any ideas as to the blade ?

[katana]

Hi
posted this sabre on Mark's thread ...... "Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?" .

The sword seems to originate from West Africa, the scabbard Manding or Ivory Coast. With so much trade and colonial activity in the area the blade could have originated in a number of European countries.

After a number of comments (in Marks thread) I am hoping that perhaps someone may be able to ID the blade, which I believed to be European. No markings that can be seen.....there may be something under the leather covering (on the shoulders) but there is no way to see unless I cut the leather.

The spine (back) is 4mm thick, then at approx,18cms before the tip it thins to approx 1mm.
It has a broad fuller, both sides (18mm wide) and is 38cm long which follows the curve of the blade. Because the photos do not show this clearly I have applied tape to show position.
The blade is 48mm wide at handle, slightly tapering to 42mm approx. 15cms before point, then tapers again to 38mm just before point.
The blade measures 70.5cm, following the curve (of the blade), handle is 15cms long.

Thank you
David
.

[katana]

I have taken the liberty of transferring Jim's comments on this sword from the other thread.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In looking further at David's 'mystery cutlass' which as noted, seems to have a blade, obviously cut down and modified, with mounts reflecting West African influences. As also previously described the scabbard features the styling suggesting those of the Manding in Mali regions, and the hilt overall has a vestigial block type crossguard recalling those on takouba or simply the shouldered guard on many forms of edged weapons. The overall impression of the leather covered hilt may also reflect the Mandara regions bordering Cameroon and Nigeria, often raided for acquiring slaves. Perhaps weapons from these regions might have influenced the individual fashioning this weapon.

Now heres a speculative note which may draw some excitement. I have been thinking about this modified blade, and that it appears by the line of what seems to have been one with a pronounced parabolic curve. While there were obviously some sabres in Europe that followed this very Eastern style, the sword that comes to mind is the 2nd model of Virginia Manufactory sabre produced about 1803-20). The interesting rudimentary false edge on this blade (very much like the 'clipped point' of latter 18th century) is also similar to those on some cavalry sabres by this firm, Rose and Starr.

These cavalry sabres were used in the Seminole wars, Mexican American war and by the time of the Civil War, the blades were severely cut down. The Virginia Manufactory blades were deeply curved, and measured a stunning 39 1/4" from hilt to tip in a straight line as originally produced.

It is of course well known that there was considerable trade activity with the Southern states during the Civil War via Gulf Coast ports and the Caribbean, which certainly entered the spheres of routes that reached Africa. To imagine that these American cavalry blades might have reached West Africa via the well established routes from the Caribbean and ports along the Gulf of Mexico seems remarkably plausible.

Although of course profoundly optimistic, it is compelling to think that this unusually curved blade, mounted in distinctly West African styled scabbard and hilt, may well have been present in these 19th century circumstances.



attached Virginia Manufactory 2nd type (1801-1820) in orig form

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent idea David! I look forward to hearing others views on this, it seemed a plausible idea though. I've always been amazed at the scope of that war, at sea as well. While I really dont like to bring movies into discussions, the movie "Sahara" with the remains of a Confederate ship found in these desert regions was a great premise. The blockade runners were pretty busy in the Caribbean and they certainly made it across the Atlantic in some degree.

[katana]

Hi Jim,
found this on the 'net' .....with regards US sabres

http://armscollectors.com/mgs/four_big_black_swords.htm

If the blade on my sword has been modified, IMHO only the tip may have been altered. If the blade curvature had been changed, it would involve extensive heat treatments. Firstly to 'soften' the blade it would be heated to a red colour (or even hotter) and then allowed to cool very slowly. The blade then worked on the anvil, (during this process the blade would be normalised several times, another heat treatment to relieve stresses in the re-worked blade). Finally the heat to 'red', the quench to harden ....and finally a lower temperature heat and slow cool....for the final 'temper'. Looking at the blade ...I can see no evidence of a re-work (you could argue that the 'craft' of the bladesmith was so good ....that the evidence is not obvious....but I cannot see such a blade receiving such 'attention to detail'.)

The point of the sword is nicely inline with the hilt, allowing the 'thrust'. Perhaps facilitated with the reprofiling of the point ?

Still searching for the donor blade .........

Kind Regards David

[Dmitry]

There is no American pattern equivalent of this blade, so I wouldn't even look there..
The form of the blade is European, perhaps of English or German make, and quite possibly a trade blade sold directly to a North African merchant, as were many thousands of other unhilted blades.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David,
I too would say that this blade has European roots. Lots of cutlass type blades used by Police, Customs etc. throughout Europe but without stamps will be difficult to pin down. Numerous matchet (machete) and cutlass style blades were produced by a plethora of English makers/manufacturers throughout the 18/19thC. for export.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Dmitry for finding this, which as Norman says, looks very much like the customs, police etc hangers in England and Europe of 18th 19thc.
David, excellent observations on the modification potential for this blade also. As always, your acumen at these forensics is outstanding!!

The Confederate blade idea was fun, but clearly not as plausible as I hoped.
Still a most interesting West African sabre......the Confederate concept better for a good plot !

Thanks very much guys!!! Well done,
All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Dmitry and Norman,
thanks for your input, appreciated .

Dmitry, please, would you have any details of the sword pictured in your last post ?

Hi Jim,
nevermind, it would have been exciting to discover an American sabre used in Africa...... now who's thinking 'outside the box'

Kind Regards David

[celtan]

This is a beautiful sword. Naval?

Originally Posted by Dmitry

There is no American pattern equivalent of this blade, so I wouldn't even look there..
The form of the blade is European, perhaps of English or German make, and quite possibly a trade blade sold directly to a North African merchant, as were many thousands of other unhilted blades.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by katana

Dmitry, please, would you have any details of the sword pictured in your last post ?

I have just acquired it and haven't received it yet.
From the photo alone I would tentatively attribute it as British officer's hanger ca.1800-1820, perhaps naval, but not positively so. The lion mask langets are not a definitive naval characteristic. I'll report back once I have a good look at it.

I've been meaning to ask - your blade is of a very strange color. What happened with it?

[katana]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I have just acquired it and haven't received it yet.
From the photo alone I would tentatively attribute it as British officer's hanger ca.1800-1820, perhaps naval, but not positively so. The lion mask langets are not a definitive naval characteristic. I'll report back once I have a good look at it.

I've been meaning to ask - your blade is of a very strange color. What happened with it?

Thanks Dmitry,
as to the colour of the blade...I believe it is a photo effect, a combination of an overcast day and the use of photo shop type software ....to show the contours of the blade better.

Perhaps, there is a possibility that my blade was originally Naval ?

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Dmitry and Norman,
thanks for your input, appreciated .

Dmitry, please, would you have any details of the sword pictured in your last post ?

Hi Jim,
nevermind, it would have been exciting to discover an American sabre used in Africa...... now who's thinking 'outside the box'

Kind Regards David

Hi David,
Absolutely!!! As I've always noted how much I have always admired your keen skills in this process of observation, it seems Ive learned a lot from you in its application!!! You're still the master at it though, and it truly brings dimension into the research. Even though this one fell short, it was fun.

The sword presented by Dmitry is spot on! and I really look forward to more discussion on it. While I believe that as noted, there is some possibility of a naval edged weapon, one would expect to find a fouled anchor someplace of that were the case. In many ways, it resembles a naval dirk, although I think those were typically more distinct in the blade type and shorter, but I would defer to others better versed on that.
Personally I think Norman's suggestion on customs and police swords is well placed, but Im not sure the lionhead of military fashion would be used. The blade certainly does seem of the type though. It was always interesting to me that some of the other customs sabres of early 19th century were essentially full size cavalry style blades, and these ended up with the mountain artillery divisions.

All best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by katana

Perhaps, there is a possibility that my blade was originally Naval ?

Impossible to say with any degree of certainty, imho. In this case it's "the clothes that make the man". Seeing a blade like this decorated with naval symbols, or coupled with a hilt bearing like attributes, or with a two hundred year old documented provenance would certainly be nice. Otherwise things turn conjectural.


The length of your blade, 70.5 cm, is it the straight line from blade tip to the bottom of the hilt?
If that is the case, a blade that would be quite consistent with the shape and length of yours, is often seen on the British 1803 Pattern Infantry Officer's swords, such as this one.