Turkish Yatagan. Need help, translate the text.

Gess · 23rd November 2009, 12:32 PM

I realized that the year 1274 = 1858, but the translation text for me - the problem.

Help me please!
Best regards.

Gess · 24th November 2009, 02:07 PM

Hey!
Who's there?
Messrs.: Dom and Zifir!
Help!

Dom · 24th November 2009, 06:51 PM

come on man ...

it's a SPARE TIME job

otherwise I will sent you an invoice

à +

Dom

ps/ the translation is done, it's in arabic
but just some time to put it in form
I was busy by personal matter, "if" you allow me ...

Gess · 24th November 2009, 08:25 PM

Cheers!

I got the response!

Senior DOM, do not be offended please. You - super maestro in these matters, you can not help me. I was very happy that you answered. Thank you!

Dom · 25th November 2009, 03:39 AM

here we are

first line
AMAL SALAH KHABEN OSMAN ELM DAR either in English MADE BY SALAH KHABEN OSMAN ELM DAR

second line
SAHEB MALEK SOLIMAN ARA either in English BELONGS TO THE OWNER SOLIMAN (ARA error corrected by Teodor) AGHA
not sure, but "Ara" should be a title for Ottoman, only Zifir could clarify that point,
BUT due to correction I may confirm that "AGHA" is the top rank in janissary troops, and I'm formal

à +

Dom

THANKS TO TEODOR
who put me back on the right track

CORRECTION, it's not"AGA" but "AGHA" janissary rank (top level)

à +

Dom

TVV · 25th November 2009, 04:24 AM

Dom, could it be Aga instead of Ara?

Teodor

Gess · 25th November 2009, 10:15 AM

Dom, I take off my hat before you.

Thank you very much!
Let's wait Zifir, it is interesting that he will tell.

Dom · 25th November 2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Dom, could it be Aga instead of Ara?

Teodor

Thank you very much indeed Teodor to have corrected me

à +

Dom

Gess · 25th November 2009, 01:19 PM

The same Suliman ...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleima...rkish_officer)

It has entered army in 1854 Has ended military college in Istanbul (1861). Participated in suppression of revolts in Montenegro (1862) and on Crete (1867). In 1867 - the major, with 1873 colonel.

Gess · 25th November 2009, 02:17 PM

Or another...? In 1848 has entered into Bucharest.

Gess · 25th November 2009, 03:45 PM

Oh, SOLIMANs in Turkey many people ...
Of course not all "AGHA", but many ...

TVV · 25th November 2009, 04:46 PM

In my understanding, Agha in the Ottoman Empire was just a polite title, applied to pretty much every Muslim man of some age, not dissimilar to how we use "sir" nowadays. Most towns and villages probably had a Suliman Agha.
Regards,
Teodor

Gess · 25th November 2009, 05:00 PM

I totally agree with you.
My posts - this is a joke, a fantasy.

To kill time until Zifir.
Regards

Dom · 26th November 2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

In my understanding, Agha in the Ottoman Empire was just a polite title, applied to pretty much every Muslim man of some age, not dissimilar to how we use "sir" nowadays. Most towns and villages probably had a Suliman Agha.
Regards,
Teodor

you are correct Teodor

it's what happens in Egypt in nowadays, for instance
when we want to honor some one,
we give him the title of "Pacha" or "Bey"

now the question might be ; in XIX century,
what have been the habits into the Turkish civilian life ??

might be no "joke" with title

the matter was too serious & sensitive ??

à +

Dom

Zifir · 26th November 2009, 10:45 AM

Hi,
There is only one or two things to add to Dom's transliteration. I think in the first line there is elif (a) missing so it's Salih Agha not Salih Gabin, this is of course my guessing. The word at the end of the line is Alemdar (a rank in janissary corps).

Of course Teodor is correct saying that in the second half of the nineteenth century the title Agha became something like "sir" in Ottoman language. But before the abolishing of the Janissary Corps not everyone was an agha, it was mainly a military title.

One last comment about the yataghan, it's interesting that our sword maker, who was a son of a janissary called Osman Alemdar, was still using this janissary title (Alemdar) for his father in 1850's, because Sultan Mahmud II banned the use of janissary titles after the abolishing of the Janissary Corps. This is expected of course, because in 1850's this did not matter much for the state anymore.

Gess · 26th November 2009, 10:45 AM

If you engage in serious debate, then we must look wider.
1. Owner wrote about himself on the blade. I do not think that he will assign a rank of "AGHA".
2. Yataghan obviously expensive. On the handle there were traces of gold, silver and frames for precious stones. Such nominal Yataghan could afford a rich, respectable man.
3. Year 1858! Turkey is involved in the war. Many weapons, not expensive . Who could spend a lot of money on such a subject?...
Regards,
Gess.

I was late with my post. Appeared respected Zifir and responded.
Please! Write to the final text, including all amendments.

P.S. Alemdar (a rank in janissary corps) - the standard-bearer?

Dom · 26th November 2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gess

Or another...? In 1848 has entered into Bucharest.

careful this one is a "Pacha" not an "Agha"

TVV · 26th November 2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gess

If you engage in serious debate, then we must look wider.
1. Owner wrote about himself on the blade. I do not think that he will assign a rank of "AGHA".

Actually, Agha was assigned quite often after the owner's name on blades. I am attaching a quick scan from Astvatsaturian's book on Turkish arms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gess

2. Yataghan obviously expensive. On the handle there were traces of gold, silver and frames for precious stones. Such nominal Yataghan could afford a rich, respectable man.

Obviously whoever comissioned the yataghan was not poor, but it is common for Western Balkan yataghans of the 19th century to be richly decorated with walruss ivory hilts with corals ans semi-precious stones. This would not have been beyond the means of a large Muslim landowner, of which there were a few per village.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gess

3. Year 1858! Turkey is involved in the war. Many weapons, not expensive . Who could spend a lot of money on such a subject?...
Regards,
Gess. :

This is an interesting observation, as the yataghan looks to be from the Western Balkans. It may have belonged to an Ottoman irregular who participated in the war with Serbia and Montenegro. However, based on my observations on the weapons of Ottoman irregulars from the war of 1877-78, they certainly did not experience problems in equipping themselves with lavishly decorated arms, and sometimes even with the most modern weapons available, such as Winchester repeating rifles, etc. Unfortunately therefore, it is impossible to determine the rank of a weapon owner based on richness of decoration.

Gess, do not get me wrong - this is a very nice yataghan in great condition and most of us here would love to have it. I know I will. But without provenance, it is impossible to tell whether it belonged to a famous historical figure or just a common bashi-bazouk.

Best regards,
Teodor

Zifir · 27th November 2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gess

If you engage in serious debate, then we must look wider.
1. Owner wrote about himself on the blade. I do not think that he will assign a rank of "AGHA".
2. Yataghan obviously expensive. On the handle there were traces of gold, silver and frames for precious stones. Such nominal Yataghan could afford a rich, respectable man.
3. Year 1858! Turkey is involved in the war. Many weapons, not expensive . Who could spend a lot of money on such a subject?...
Regards,
Gess.

I was late with my post. Appeared respected Zifir and responded.
Please! Write to the final text, including all amendments.

P.S. Alemdar (a rank in janissary corps) - the standard-bearer?

Yes, Alemdar (or sometimes bayrakdar) means standard-bearer.

zalmoxis · 27th November 2009, 06:20 PM

I noticed that the inlay on my yataghan looks exactly like the one in the books. Can somebody tell me what is the year? Some marks look similar with the ones in the book.
Thanks

TVV · 27th November 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zalmoxis

I noticed that the inlay on my yataghan looks exactly like the one in the books. Can somebody tell me what is the year? Some marks look similar with the ones in the book.
Thanks

The numbers are 122, so if there was a 0 imitted at the end, that would be 1220 Hijri or 1805-1806 Gregorian.
Regards,
Teodor

zalmoxis · 27th November 2009, 08:14 PM

Thanks man.

Gess · 4th December 2009, 10:37 AM

Thank you very much: Dom, Zifir and (of course) TVV - Teodor!!!
I do not expect that this Yataghan belonged to famous historical figure.
Through discussion and excellent translations, I think it belongs to one of the last Janissaries. AGHA title may be - just respectful, but the title Alemdar - without a doubt Janissary. 1858 allows me to think so, for 8 years - Sultan was unable to destroy them all, and in another 20 years (1876-78), this would certainly bashi-bazouk.
Regards.

23rd November 2009, 12:32 PM	#1
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Turkish Yataghan. Need help, translate the text. I realized that the year 1274 = 1858, but the translation text for me - the problem. Help me please! Best regards. Attached Images Last edited by Gess; 23rd November 2009 at 02:27 PM.

25th November 2009, 03:39 AM	#5
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	here we are first line AMAL SALAH KHABEN OSMAN ELM DAR either in English *MADE BY SALAH KHABEN OSMAN ELM DAR* second line SAHEB MALEK SOLIMAN ARA either in English *BELONGS TO THE OWNER SOLIMAN* (ARA error corrected by Teodor) *AGHA* not sure, but "Ara" should be a title for Ottoman, only Zifir could clarify that point, BUT due to correction I may confirm that "AGHA" is the top rank in janissary troops, and I'm formal à + Dom THANKS TO TEODOR who put me back on the right track CORRECTION, it's not"AGA" but "AGHA" janissary rank (top level) à + Dom Attached Images Last edited by Dom; 25th November 2009 at 11:56 AM.

25th November 2009, 01:19 PM	#9
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	The same Suliman ...? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleima...rkish_officer) It has entered army in 1854 Has ended military college in Istanbul (1861). Participated in suppression of revolts in Montenegro (1862) and on Crete (1867). In 1867 - the major, with 1873 colonel. Attached Images Last edited by Gess; 25th November 2009 at 02:16 PM.

25th November 2009, 02:17 PM	#10
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Or another...? In 1848 has entered into Bucharest. Attached Images

26th November 2009, 10:45 AM	#15
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Hi, There is only one or two things to add to Dom's transliteration. I think in the first line there is elif (a) missing so it's Salih Agha not Salih Gabin, this is of course my guessing. The word at the end of the line is Alemdar (a rank in janissary corps). Of course Teodor is correct saying that in the second half of the nineteenth century the title Agha became something like "sir" in Ottoman language. But before the abolishing of the Janissary Corps not everyone was an agha, it was mainly a military title. One last comment about the yataghan, it's interesting that our sword maker, who was a son of a janissary called Osman Alemdar, was still using this janissary title (Alemdar) for his father in 1850's, because Sultan Mahmud II banned the use of janissary titles after the abolishing of the Janissary Corps. This is expected of course, because in 1850's this did not matter much for the state anymore. Attached Images

24th November 2009, 02:07 PM	#2
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Hey! Who's there? Messrs.: Dom and Zifir! Help!

24th November 2009, 06:51 PM	#3
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	come on man ... it's a SPARE TIME job otherwise I will sent you an invoice à + Dom ps/ the translation is done, it's in arabic but just some time to put it in form I was busy by personal matter, "if" you allow me ...

24th November 2009, 08:25 PM	#4
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Cheers! I got the response! Senior DOM, do not be offended please. You - super maestro in these matters, you can not help me. I was very happy that you answered. Thank you!

25th November 2009, 04:24 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Dom, could it be Aga instead of Ara? Teodor

25th November 2009, 10:15 AM	#7
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Dom, I take off my hat before you. Thank you very much! Let's wait Zifir, it is interesting that he will tell.

25th November 2009, 03:45 PM	#11
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Oh, SOLIMANs in Turkey many people ... Of course not all "AGHA", but many ...

25th November 2009, 04:46 PM	#12
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	In my understanding, Agha in the Ottoman Empire was just a polite title, applied to pretty much every Muslim man of some age, not dissimilar to how we use "sir" nowadays. Most towns and villages probably had a Suliman Agha. Regards, Teodor

25th November 2009, 05:00 PM	#13
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	I totally agree with you. My posts - this is a joke, a fantasy. To kill time until Zifir. Regards

27th November 2009, 06:20 PM	#20
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	Yataghan maks. I noticed that the inlay on my yataghan looks exactly like the one in the books. Can somebody tell me what is the year? Some marks look similar with the ones in the book. Thanks Attached Images

27th November 2009, 08:14 PM	#22
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	Thanks man.

4th December 2009, 10:37 AM	#23
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Thank you very much: Dom, Zifir and (of course) TVV - Teodor!!! I do not expect that this Yataghan belonged to famous historical figure. Through discussion and excellent translations, I think it belongs to one of the last Janissaries. AGHA title may be - just respectful, but the title Alemdar - without a doubt Janissary. 1858 allows me to think so, for 8 years - Sultan was unable to destroy them all, and in another 20 years (1876-78), this would certainly bashi-bazouk. Regards.