Guess this Indian sword

[Jens Nordlunde]

Maybe I have bent the rules, just a little bit, by showing these pictures, but I did it to the benefit of the members. So I don’t hope the moderators will quarter me and put me on a wheel, as I have done this on my own risk, and that is risky enough as it is. I know the quality of the pictures is bad, but that is all I have - sorry.

What is this?

It is Indian, but from where in India is it?

What is so special about it?

What is it called?

I know the answers to these questions, but I thought it could be funny to see if someone else knows, or can guess it. I will bring the answers later, but until then gentlemen, please take a number and wait for your time to give your answer to the questions.

[RobT]

Oh well, time to display my ignorance I guess. I believe the sword Jens shows is a Sosun pattah with an Indo/Muslim hilt. Given the T-rib, I would guess it was from somewhere around Afghanistan. As to why it's so special, aside from the fact that it's a really beautiful sword, I have no idea. What I don't understand is that the sword that Rick shows is appears to be a kirach with a Hindu basket hilt. I know I'm missing something and it's going to be something very obvious and I'm going to feel like a jerk.
Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Obviously we have two different swords here.

Jens picture shows an Indo-Persian (tulwar) hilted sword with recurved blade and T-spine. The blade resembles a yataghan, but as Rob has noted it is probably a sossun patah of Islamic form (versus Hindu form). We have seen T-spined yataghan before, I think with Ottoman hilts, but I don't recall one with a tulwar hilt. I agree with Rob that the T-spine suggests the NW Frontier region: Afghanistan or nearby. The scabbard seems unusual also in that the suspension system is two rings mounted at the throat of the scabbard, similar to Moroccan swords and knives. I'm out of my depth trying to expain the origin of that feature.

Rick's sword, as noted by Rob, resembles a kirach, with a pointed downcurved blade. Again the large false edge and partial T-spine seem unusual, and might suggest NW India. What strikes me as most obviously uncommon on this one is the hilt -- a hybrid between the Indian basket hilt and the Indo-Persian (tulwar) hilt. We saw a couple of pictures illustrating this transitional form of hilt at Timonium, and I think they were attributed to a particular period, as the fashion shifted from the older Indian basket form to the tulwar form, but again I don't recall the exact time frame. I was sitting next to Jim McDougall who was taking copious notes, so I'm sure Jim will be contributing here shortly.

Ian.

[Conogre]

I'm obviously missing the point here, but perhaps it's only in the wording and too subtle for my present frame of mind.
The 2nd also appears to have a "firengi" quality to the hilt, very much in keeping with the blade as an adapted form.
Mike

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is Indian, but from where in India is it? It is a special sword from Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Deccan.
What is so special about it? The T spine.
What is it called? Sailaba.

Hilt 17 cm.

Blade 65 cm.

18th century

In ‘A Catalogue of Arms and Armour in the State Museum, Hyderabad’, 1975, I found this picture, and found it interesting enough to show. Had I not known from where the sailaba came, I might have guessed on a place far more to the north, but the text to the illustration clearly states that it is a special sword from Hyderabad. What is even more interesting is, that in the catalogue they have a kind of an inventory list of the weapons in the museum, and here it states that they have twenty-seven sailaba’s.
In the catalogue they have sailaba’s from 17th to 19th century, and the length of the blades are from 44 to 77 cm.
The sailaba shown have an inscription on the blade with the name ‘Saheb Ali’ and the date given is 1194 H.


Rick's sword is of course a kirach, but it is an unusual kirach as the false edge is very long, just as the heavy reinforcement of the spine is heavier than normally seen. Tulwar/basket hilts are seen, but not so often.

[Jeff D]

Hi Jens,

Is the date 1194 or is it 1197?

Jeff

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jeff,

Why do you ask? The catalogue says 1194 H., so I have to believe in it - this should be about 1780 our time.
Btw I see on another thread that you have chosen to show a weapon - in detail - shame on you, I thought I had the rights.

Best
jens

[Jeff D]

Hi Jens,

I am trying to learn to read Arabic dates and if you look at the detailed photo of the blade that you posted , on the right side you see signs that look like this; '119V' . I think that is the date but V is arabic for 7.
As for the Nordlundesque photo's, you may have been the first and possibly the best at it, but you don't have exclusive rights! ask Wolviex. .

All the Best.
Jeff

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jeff,

That you can see the numbers on the photo is beyound me, buy the catalogue says 1194 - well what are a few years between friends?

I fully agree with you on the details - they are lovely, and no copyright of course.

Best

Jens

[Jeff D]

Maybe I am seeing things but here is what I was looking at;

Jeff

[Rick]

Sorry guys for the unintentional thread jacking . I'll start another thread on the kirach later .
My bad .

[Ian]

Jeff:

I think you are correct. That does look like a date of 1197 H.

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

Once again Jens has found one of these obscure treasures!!! Excellent material Jens, and as always fascinating. If you arent producing breathtaking photos of incredibly magnificent weapons, you are coming up with terrific adventures in metallurgy and blade history. Thank you!

While this sword form from the catalog seems very much like a Kirach, obviously with tulwar hilt, it is interesting to see the application of a this unusual term 'sailaba'.

BTW, Rob T. ....excellent observations !! You are a brave soul to charge into the most nebulous areas of Indian swords, the 'sosun pattah' with actually very astute observations on both the swords originally posted here. Nicely done. Your note on the T spine is also well placed as this characteristic is most typically associated with Central Asian edged weapons, especially Afghan...and the Islamic sosun pattah.

Ian, thank you for the vote of confidence on my note taking at Baltimore, which proved not nearly as effective as I had hoped. Jonathan Barretts talk was spellbinding, and I couldn't even touch the volume of material he delivered in his talk...in my scrawl I couldnt locate any data on these transitional hilts I should have brought a video cam!!!

Back to the 'kirach' : Rick why did ya take out the pictures of the extremely unusual and outstanding example of kirach !!!??? I think it was well placed here as we are looking at some fascinating hybridization of these Indian weapons. I feel pretty certain that your example is very likely a Sikh weapon from northern regions, and the hilt is one of the transitional forms between the traditional tulwar and the Hindu baskethilt that would seem to support that attribution.

Returning to the 'sailaba': These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there.

Since the 'sailaba' term and reference is pretty new to me, as well as the ongoing confusion on 'sosun pattahs' and variations of them and the kirach are increasingly apparant, I'd really like like to continue this discussion to see if we can clarify some of these.
Rick, maybe you could repost your kirach? It really is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim

[RobT]

Thanks Ian for the basket hilt clarification. I wondered why it was less baskety than what is normally seen on a firangi. Thanks to Jens also for information on a blade that I have never before heard of. I do have four questions however. Does the sailaba always come with an Indo/Muslim hilt and is it exclusively a Moslim arm? What does sailaba mean? Most importantly, how did the T-rib so closely associated with northern India come to be found on a south central blade type?
Sincerely,
RobT

[Rick]

I'll start a new thread on the kirach , just to avoid general confusion over Indian sword types .

Yeah , I thought it might be Sikh too .

Coming soon .

[tom hyle]

OK you put it in an envelope, and I'll get my turban
In another stage-magic related matter, did Rick do the disapearing sword trick, or is the computer quicker than the eye (slower than the patience?)? What kirach? I wanna see a kirach

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Jim for the kind words, but don’t overdo it, or I may end believing in it, and self-delusion is something, which one should avoid.

Jeff, I think you are right, so maybe they skipped proof reading the catalogue, which is a sin, not easily forgiven.

RobT, these tulwar/basket hilts are seen, although not very often, and as Ian writes, they disappeared at one point – only I don’t know when, but I think it must have been early 19th century.
I think the answer to the hilt question must be yes, but I would not be surprised if one was found with another hilt type, as many swords were ‘modified’. Yes it is a Muslim weapon, but could no doubt have been used in other places, as looted weapons were used again, sometimes unchanged, and sometimes rehilted. I don’t know what Sailaba means, but the sword type is from Turkey as you can see below, so the word is maybe Turkish but it could also be Indian. The T spine is an interesting question, and you are right that it mostly is associated with the north, but you must also remember that Turkey fought many wars in the north and traded, by the sea, with south India.
Notice tah the same sword can have different names in the north and in the south, although they mostly are called the same.


The text below is from the homepage of The National Museum, New Delhi, and by using the link you can read more about Indian weapons.

With the establishment of Sultanate and later the Mughal rule in India, the weapon underwent a significant change and we see some unique weapons introduced during the period. The Persian sword Shamsheer, the Arabian Zulfiqar and the Turkish Sailaba also appeared on the scene alongwith the indigenous weapons.

http://www.nationalmuseumindia.org/armour.html

[Oriental-Arms]

Few comments if I may:

We came across several similar swords. See for example:



I purchased the upper sword in Udaipur, Rajhastan. The dealer that sold it to us called it Sousson pata (which I agreed) and told us that it is from Rajhastan. The lower one was purchased in the U.S. Its scabbard is now in restoration but please notice the similarities of the fittings to the one shown by Jens, especially the scabbard tip. Both have the Islamic style handle, and both are richly decorated with gold and silver inlay (so I believe is the sword from the Hyderabad museum but it is difficult to see). Both swords has a strong T spine, very similar to Yataghan blades in shape and dimensions, and both have a short ricasso which ones never find on a Turkish Yataghan.



Both blades are forged from high quality wootz steel:





A third similar sword I believe is with Dr. Lee Jones, and I hope Lee can post few photos. This one is of particular interest as the blade is forged from pattern welded steel in the structure known as Turkish Ribbon. It is composed of several strips of twisted steel bars (Turkish stars) forged welded together. We have seen twisted steel on many swords, from Europe to Indonesia. But Turkish Ribbon was so popular on Ottoman swords from the late 17 to the early 19 C. and it is so typical that it is almost screaming I was made in Turkey . What is more interesting about Lee’s sword is that it also has a Ricasso, and the blade is gold inlaid with Indian style decoration.

All this strengthen the Turkish connection. I am almost sure that Lee’s sword was made in Turkey for the Indian market. (Lee, few photos please…)

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Jens, maybe we should revise the dictionaries , I wouldve gone for the sossun pata but you preffer "sailaba" ... I remember the time before this it was the "khurasani" ...
What exactly makes a "sailaba" a "sailaba" and not a "sossun pata" ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields.


I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer.

[Oriental-Arms]

Regarding the names, it is of no importance what Jens calls it or me or any other collector calls it. What matters is what were the original owners calling it. And Jens is absolutely correct. It could have a different name in different parts of India. My intuition is that the name Sailaba somehow comes from Turkey, which strengthen the Turkish connection of these beautiful and interesting swords.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood’s book Hindu Arms and Ritual, I found this interesting comment on the Sailaba on page 260.

Sailaba. Short Muslim sword with a forward curved blade from Hyderabad (Deccan). ….. The weapon is identical to the sosun pattah and probably derives from the yataghan which is the earlier weapon. Irvin gives sailabah-I-qalmaqi, a knife as long as a sword with a walrus ivory grip, used by the men of Kashgar.

[ariel]

It took only 8 years , but it just occurred to me , that Sailaba may be another version of phonetic transliteration of "Selaava", the local name for what the Brits designated as "Khyber knife".
If that is correct, and taking into account frequent construction of the Khyber knife with a (slightly) recurved blade, we may finally understand where the term "Salawar yataghan" came from.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I just read this thread once more, as I had forgotten most of the discussion.

Jim, you are in trouble, deep trouble, but I will let you off the hook this time, as very few knows this. You wrote in post 13, "These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan". Wrong - these is also a Hyderabad in Sind (Pakistan) - but it is not very well known, so adding Deccan removes any doubt about from where it is.

Ariel, it is nine years ago I wrote the thread, and I was amazed that you found it, how many had a look at it.
I dont know from where the word Sailaba origins, but I tend to believe that it is of Turkish origin, as the Turkish influence was very strong in Deccan.
Unfortunately I dont know much, hardly anything, about the origin of the different words, other that it seem as if many of te European words come from Sanskrit.

Jens

[ariel]

I asked my Turkish colleague, but she could not recall anything resembling that name.
Well, she is woman, and a pacifist to boot :-)

[AJ1356]

Sailaba is probably a misnomer, Sailab means flood, but sailawa is the name of what everyone in Afghanistan call a khayber knife. This piece looks like a yataghan blade with a indian hilt, even the writings are similar to other yataghans. there are many instances of where indian had taken foriegn blades and added an indian hilt to them.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The same swords/daggers would have different names in the different parts of India.
This is no doubt due to the influence from different countries, like Turky, Persia, Afghanistan and other countries.
It does not mean much as collectors now use mostly the same terms, but it is good/interesting to know what they were called then.
To know the different terms is good, as you may see a term used, which is not common and no illustration used, you will still know what kind of weapon it is.
Jens

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields.


I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer.

Yes, Jens' guess is as good as ever.
Sailaba is not exactly a Turkish word, but a Turkic one. Turkic people ( Kazakh, South Siberian) had short swords called Selebe or Selava. Their migration to Afghanistan gave name of Selaavah to what we call Khyber Knife, and to Deccan,- sailaba.
Here is a schematic drawing of the Kazakh " selebe" by a brilliant Kazakh ethographer Jokan Valikhanov ( sp.) , 19th century

Russian army adopted this short sword ( saber) for unter-officers , called them Suleba.

[ariel]

And here is a real old Kazakh selebe.