Anyone recognizes these marks?

[fernando]

An old blade, possibly rom a rapier, and possibly from the XVII or XVIII century.
I first thought it would be Portuguese or Spanish, but someone sugested Solingen.
May any member discern where and whose these marks are from?
Thanks in advance.
Fernando

The pictures have distinct backgrounds because i had to choose them from various atempts to get reasonable takes ... allways difficult to picture tiny marks.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
I think there were a number of these types of rapier blades made in Solingen in the latter 18th century, and these turn up unmounted like this as it seems they were shipped to New Spain for mounting. I have seen these found in shipwreck remains in groupings in number.
The Solingen examples seem to usually have markings in the fuller, such as Jesus on one side and Maria the other, with Toledo type stamps. They are not on the tang as I recall, so this might be genuinely Spanish or possibly Portuguese.
Hopefully someone will recognize the marks, I'll have to dig out the usual references, as always, buried somewhere here in the bookmobile

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

HI Fernando,

your blade is definitely a Dutch 18thC small sword blade.
(not a rapier blade; a rapier is at least 110cm long and on each rapier the fore-finger touches the blade when holding the rapier, therefore the ricasso is not sharp)
more of importance this star shaped figure has only been found on Dutch small-swords. (cf J.P Puype.... blanke wapens)

regards from Holland

[fernando]

Eeuwig dankbaar, Admiraal , .
I confess i was already pondering on its shape and length, as being more in line with a small sword setup.
But the main thing is that you have identified its origin, for which i am much obliged.
Now i have the door open to try and find who was the smith.
Let me thank you again.
Fernando

[celtan]

Hola Nandin,

Elipsoid/Diamond crosscut suggests 19th C.

I had a Dutch Diplomatic Sword from ~1830-50 with a very similar looking blade.

Best

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Eeuwig dankbaar, Admiraal , .
I confess i was already pondering on its shape and length, as being more in line with a small sword setup.
But the main thing is that you have identified its origin, for which i am much obliged.
Now i have the door open to try and find who was the smith.
Let me thank you again.
Fernando

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

thanks
the blade type flat oval to hexagonal was very common for Dutch small swords from the first half of the 18thC. also the star disappeared after approx 1750.
the 18thC Dutch sword makers usually signed there blades not with a stamped mark but with a script. name and address of the shop see picture (jean Hosse Mr swaartveger op de vijgendam tot Amsterdam).

your blade has a stamp GH.
there was a silversmith named Gerrit Hoying who made a lot of beautiful silver hilts for small swords. not the blades but just the hilts.
It can be that your blade has been delivered (by another fourbiseur) to the silversmith with the initials GH.

best regards

[fernando]

Hi Cornelis ... and other dear members ,

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... your blade is definitely a Dutch 18thC small sword blade ...

This is, in a way, a sort of historic issue .
I have decided to post this blade in SFI, trying to go deep into the maker's mark identification. Suddenly some of its members unleashed the dogs to me, when i said i was assured that the blade was Dutch.
I was chalenged with phrases like "if you have proof of it, just give it" and "the burden of proof is with whoever makes claims of attribution", like if i was making some inquisitorial accusation.
Guys, i thought i was bad but, in the presence of such characters, i felt i would have to go and stand in line to have my chance.
I refrain from telling how this story has ended.
Anyway, i guess this thing of marks in blades, unless you have recorded evidence, is allways discussable; the main reason being that blades are not swords, and swords may be entirely made in a determined nation or have their blades brought/imported from somewhere else.
It might be that this star mark often appears in Dutch blades but, it happens that we can (also) see it in swords recorded in other countries. Now, whether such swords were made entirely in those countries, or actually imported from the Nederlands, or even only had their blades of Dutch origin, is something that i still don't know the means to distinguish.
Concerning the specific example of this thread, i have contacted the Dutch Museum and the curator Harm Stevens kindly gave me the following answer:
It is true that the star on the blade - a so called paternoster? - is often associated with Dutch blades. I am afraid that I haven't succeeded in identifying the mark on the tang..
Meanwhile i have being paging some Portuguese books and auction catalogues, and swords with this type of star mark make a regular appearance. Then again, the fact that they appear in Portugal doesn't impeach that they were imported. Eventually two of the samples i located are tagged as Portuguese, namely one with a typical hilt style ... the so called sail hilt.
Also a certain contact has assured me he has a sword he bought in Portugal, whith a similar star mark on the blade, and with a legend inscribed with an allegory to a Portuguese King.
Adding the fact that the example that gave reason to this thread was bought in Portugal, originating from a fine house collection (seller said), i feel like i am like the fool on the bridge.
BTW, a few days after i bought the blade, the seller told me it had some ugly broken parts mounted in it and, as he 'knew' they had nothing to do with a real sword, he threw them into the trash depot. As i doubted his knowledge, i asked him to try and recuperate them, which he did, and then i found out the parts are the remnants of an actual small sword ... a humble version, but still real parts.
Fernando

.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

unfortunately it is not possible to deliver hard evidence that your blade is Dutch or Portuguese , maybe the other marks can give the outcome.


Mr JP Puype the predecessor of Mr Harm Stevens mentioned in his Dutch sword publication. Blanke wapens p.50 afb.46
....the star-shaped cavity which is almost exclusively found on Dutch sword blades

it is a fact that the paternoster has been frequently used on late 17thC and early 18thC Dutch small swords. those blades are also often signed with the full name of the Dutch maker and the sword shop's address.
there are 100's of examples in collections and museums.

there was a huge export from the Dutch Republic to Portugal in the 17th and 18thC.
already in 1640 the Dutch republic delivered for the Portuguese war against Spain;
24.000 muskets, 4.500 calivers, 5000 carbines, 1000 pairs of pistols and 5000 pikes, 360.000 pounds of gunpowder.
It is possible that the examples of later 18thC small swords you have listed
have been mounted with Dutch blades or are 100% imported and Dutch.
of course it is also possible that Portuguese sword smiths adapted/copied the paternoster on their blades. the paternoster disappeared after approx 1750
in Holland ,the swords you have listed are of a later date.

taking above into consideration it is more likely that your sword blade can be Dutch.

best regards

[Jim McDougall]

Cornelis, beautifully supported explanation and thank you so much for the cite to the Puype reference! (trying to 'excavate' books here can be a daunting task!).
Is Mr. Puype still around? I have tried to contact him without success in recent times.

On another topic, I just posted some material on the thread on 'foreign' workers in European centers, and would really appreciate your input concerning the 'Tonquinese' hilts. Since this also concerns the activity of Dutch swordsmiths I note it here...I promise not trying to hijack the thread Fernando
BTW Fernando, excellent follow up in contacting the Dutch Museum, and I was sorry to hear of the 'help' you received in your post elsewhere. I always have admired your tenacity to go after answers, often beyond what many would deem satisfactory.
Great examples of the Portuguese swords with this marking, which really adds dimension to its appearance on these blades found elsewhere. Since the practice of the application of spurious marks to enhance the value of blades seems a practice widespread throughout known centers, it does not seem unreasonable that Portuguese craftsmen might have done the same.

I gasped at the story on the sword parts tossed away! Nicely done in saving those components....I cannot believe such attitudes regarding preserving such history.

All best regards,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Cornelis, beautifully supported explanation and thank you so much for the cite to the Puype reference! (trying to 'excavate' books here can be a daunting task!).
Is Mr. Puype still around? I have tried to contact him without success in recent times.

Hi Jim,

please see the private mail.

Best regards

[fernando]

Thank you so much, Cornelis, for your clarifications and precious info. I will obviously save that precious data on the Dutch weaponry exports to Portugal, in my files.
Met vriendelijke groeten .

Thank you Jim, for the kind coments. I too am glad i had the perception that those 'useless' parts would have their contextual value.
... And by all means, your'e free to hijack my threads any time you feel like .
All the best
Fernando