Zulu Walking Stick For Comment

Lew · 28th February 2009, 04:47 AM

I found this the other day seems early 20th century to me?

colin henshaw · 28th February 2009, 01:03 PM

Yes, in my opinion early 20th century...

Regards

Tim Simmons · 1st March 2009, 09:27 PM

Nice stick Lew. I would agree with Colin early 20th cent. It seems to be a fairly common type. I have this one which is more of a dress stick being only 73cm long. A sign of its lateness to me is the opposite end to the ball, which has a slight bevelled edge and the end has been dressed flat by a file. I know files have been in use for centuries but all the early short sticks that I have, not having contact with the ground have been carved or worn/rubbed at the end. To many collectors this lateness may cause some disinterest but one has to realise how much parts of Southern Africa were like the wild west. Traditional warriors still engaging in conflicts untill 1906. Like in this link, the only survivors two Americans and an Australian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangani_Patrol

It is fasinating how worldwide things like this, swords and knives seem to come in roughly the same set sizes. I suppose we are all humans.

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2009, 09:50 PM

Hello Lew, I asume you will be looking here. I just ebayed this staff/stick which I believe is quite possibly Fon or Benin, certainly West African and high status. The the fist image is a potent symbol in West Africa. I hope to post better pics in the next few days. I could be very much deluded

I was the only bidder

Lew · 17th March 2009, 10:14 PM

Nice stick Tim.

What I find strange is that the shaft seems to be bamboo never saw an African stick made from it but you never know.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2009, 10:20 PM

magnify this pic, some kind of grain? The seller says carved step down stick?

Tim Simmons · 18th March 2009, 09:36 AM

Extract from-
{The Continuum Encyclopedia of Native Art: Worldview, Symbolism and Culture in Africa, Oceania and North America}

Tim Simmons · 18th March 2009, 01:02 PM

Fist staff with mudfish and orginal context.
http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~dvess/ids/fap/benin.htm

katana · 18th March 2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

magnify this pic, some kind of grain? The seller says carved step down stick?

Grain it is ....

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2009, 07:45 PM

Well it is here now and rather nice. The hand is much finer than the old pictures show. There are two ivory bands and a turned section of horn, this horn does seen very similar to a slightly emotive type of horn. It is a really lovey made thing. The other end has a steel cap and as can be seem this has not been in contact with hard surfaces. I think it is clearly not of European manufacture and too subtle to be Indian so I am still of a mind that it is Benin quite possibly from a prestige workshop or guild.

Lew · 20th March 2009, 09:47 PM

Tim

It really does not strike me as African but it could be Asian or Philippine. Whatever it is I think it is quiet lovely and very finely crafted.
Congrats. Btw what is the shaft made of?

Lew

Tim Simmons · 21st March 2009, 12:30 PM

Sadly Lew I think you may be right that it is not African. It is perhaps a Buddhist thing the "mudra of the knowledge fist" and I now wonder if may come from Burma. The stick is wood carved possibly to look like bamboo, sections with edges cut at opposite angles which I try to show with these pics. The wood has also been lacquered not something I would associate with Africa, though all one would need is a bottle of gin and some tree resin to make a lacquer. I am sure the turned horn section is "R". Although I am dissapointed that it is probably south Asian it is quite nice and i like the idea of the fist of kniwledge, you learn something every day

Vajra Mudra

Tim Simmons · 21st March 2009, 05:50 PM

Lew after some more thought I am back on the Benin origin.

The fist is sure benin symbol. I can ever show an example on a staff in this thread. Not so with the Buddhist "fist of wisdom" which is actually a two handed gesture, which only may possibly be resented with just a fist? Look at the turned ivory handle on this Mangbetu knife. Surely West Africa, Benin artists could turn materials too. To me it cannot be anything else. Perhaps some Buddhist members might be able to give more information on the fist gesture?

PS, another reason I hope it is what I think it is, because I have this janus mudfish thing.

Tim Simmons · 26th March 2009, 09:40 PM

We have a saying in the UK "you wait all day for a bus then three come along at once"

This; I do not think is "Trench Art" To my mind the carving is very nice and not the product of a soldier passing time. I would suggest that the 303 bullet and casing has been added much latter spoiling a super staff. It went for rather a lot of money too. It could still be a potent sybol of the power of the Oba but the bullet would still be a latter addition which is a problem.

Is there such a thing as WW2 trench art?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...51&_trksid=p39

Lew · 29th March 2009, 02:07 PM

Tim

It seems like the fist symbol gets around. Here is a pic a fist hilted British Mole machete circa 1900-25? that the owner said he picked up in the Philippines but I take that story with a grain of salt. The wire wrap is more African to me.

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2009, 02:24 PM

Fasinating Lew, and I would agree with you African, West African.

Could even be the same wood?

katana · 29th March 2009, 11:30 PM

Hi Tim and Lew

Tim I followed the 'trench art' stick as well....I wondered whether the bullet had talismatic symbolism. The bullet ...a 'taker of life' held in an authoritarian hand .....the power of life and death ???

If you look at the hilt Lew post ...there appears to be a cylindrical object slightly protruding above and below the fist ....perhaps this has meaning? It is not unlikely that this 'cylindrical' motif could have been replaced with the bullet in the 'trench art' example

Possibly making the 'trench art' stick African ...as the machete appears to be.

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 31st March 2009, 06:48 PM

Lew, I know you have turned into a stick man like Freddy and I, possibly others, we must stick together.

I have just taken a punt on this staff which I believe is from the Solomon Islands but it could come from the more prestigous Islands in collector terms too. I cannot tell untill I get it. The other end according to the seller is made of a white material that is cracked. I am sure we are looking at marine ivory. It was half the price of the last link. I am looking for picture to back up my hunch.

Tim Simmons · 31st March 2009, 08:06 PM

I am thinking this sort of work only perhaps a little more mundane. From the Art of Tonga, Hawai university press. Or something like in this link.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...n+island+staff

Tim Simmons · 3rd April 2009, 05:22 PM

It is here and even better than I hoped for. My hunch was right Tongan, Fijian or Samoan. Tongan artists were established on all Islands. Sadly one little dot is missing and the whale ivory end is split is two places but I think I will just about be able to live with the damage. I could sacrifice the handle of a common Central Asian knife and replace the dot. Would that be wrong?

Shown with a Solomon staff.

colin henshaw · 3rd April 2009, 06:38 PM

Hi Tim

Here is one of mine, from the Solomon Islands, for comparison. I believe the serpent motif is part of their iconography.

Regards

Tim Simmons · 3rd April 2009, 06:43 PM

Very very nice Colin. Some more stuff on Tongan artists.

Tim Simmons · 10th April 2009, 07:41 PM

Lew I think you will look here. I have just taken another punt on this item. 34, 1/2 inches, tapering from 1, 1/4 inches to 7/8 of an inch. That would make the hand around 3 inches wide so it could well be used as a club. This was the only picture so it bit of a gamble. Apparently there is slight damage to the outside of the little finger. Which could indicate use as a weapon. I think it is clearly African. Like your machete it is a left hand, the other sticks in this thread are right hand.

Royston · 12th April 2009, 12:31 PM

Another African stick which is carved from one piece of horn. I am guessing that it is Oryx as it is quite straight.
It's a bit short for a walking stick at about 1 metre so it may have served another purpose.

Any suggestions as to the origin ?

Regards
Royston

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2009, 07:56 PM

Looks like you could fend off any nasty person with that point. Are you sure it is horn? not that I doubt you just that things can be hard to discern through a PC. The horn is solid? I believe antelope horns are hollow? solid horn would be far more rare. I am not an expert but to my mind this is East African like Milawi, Mozambique or Tanzania. The carving to the back of the head and other aspects of the face can be seen in carving from these areas today. Frequently seen in charity shops, car boot sales and new items at so called "CRAFT" markets.
Your piece does not strike me as tourist or "art market" work, however I do feel it is modern in the sence I feel sure it is post 1918 possibly quite a bit latter. The carrying of sticks as a social marker as well as a possible defensive weapon was comman in parts of East Africa untill quite recently and no doubt still is today in the most rural areas. Interestingly my new neighbour who I was talking to this very afternoon is from Guinea. I showed him some of my sticks. He went on to say that in his region traditionally the eldest son of a family would be marked by carring a stick. There is a good we site on prestige sticks in East Africa. I will try and find it again and this time bookmark it.

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2009, 09:15 PM

That old Zulu magic, shame about the nose and the ear are a bit flaky too.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=390042158896

Lew · 13th April 2009, 02:12 PM

Tim

I was looking at that one. A nice piece but again the price is rediculous

.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 15th April 2009, 09:41 PM

The fist stick that was a gamble, well it is total rubbish, trouist, and badly damaged. The Fiji one is still nice

.

Tim Simmons · 19th April 2009, 06:14 PM

Lew,

I am sending the rubbish one back. The money will pay for this one, buy it now offer. The seller says it weighs 3/4 of a Kilo 750g? That must make it a club? 36" long.

VANDOO · 19th April 2009, 07:50 PM

THE ONLY LONG STRAIGHT HORNS WITH A LARGE SOLID TIP I KNOW OF IS THE GEMSBOK THE SOUTHERN ONES HAVING THE LONGEST HORNS. THE HORNS RANGE FROM 60 TO 150 CM. LONG AND ARE HOLLOW AT THE BASE BUT HAVE A LONG SOLID TIP. THEY CAN BE DANGEROUS TO GET AROUND AS THEY WILL USE THEIR HORNS TO STAB YOU AND ARE VERY FAST. PREDATORS DO HUNT THEM BUT ARE PROBABLY VERY CAREFUL WHEN TRYING FOR A HEALTHY ADULT THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO APROACH CLOSELY WHEN HUNTING ESPECIALLY WHEN WOUNDED. THE HORNS ARE SOMETIMES USED IN MAKING SPEARS AND OTHER ITEMS BY SOME TRIBES.

28th February 2009, 04:47 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Zulu Walking Stick For Comment I found this the other day seems early 20th century to me? Attached Images

1st March 2009, 09:27 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Nice stick Lew. I would agree with Colin early 20th cent. It seems to be a fairly common type. I have this one which is more of a dress stick being only 73cm long. A sign of its lateness to me is the opposite end to the ball, which has a slight bevelled edge and the end has been dressed flat by a file. I know files have been in use for centuries but all the early short sticks that I have, not having contact with the ground have been carved or worn/rubbed at the end. To many collectors this lateness may cause some disinterest but one has to realise how much parts of Southern Africa were like the wild west. Traditional warriors still engaging in conflicts untill 1906. Like in this link, the only survivors two Americans and an Australian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangani_Patrol It is fasinating how worldwide things like this, swords and knives seem to come in roughly the same set sizes. I suppose we are all humans. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st March 2009 at 10:14 PM. Reason: spelling. spelling

17th March 2009, 09:50 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Lew, I asume you will be looking here. I just ebayed this staff/stick which I believe is quite possibly Fon or Benin, certainly West African and high status. The the fist image is a potent symbol in West Africa. I hope to post better pics in the next few days. I could be very much deluded I was the only bidder Attached Images

17th March 2009, 10:20 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	magnify this pic, some kind of grain? The seller says carved step down stick? Attached Images

18th March 2009, 09:36 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Extract from- {The Continuum Encyclopedia of Native Art: Worldview, Symbolism and Culture in Africa, Oceania and North America} Attached Images

28th February 2009, 01:03 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Yes, in my opinion early 20th century... Regards

17th March 2009, 10:14 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice stick Tim. What I find strange is that the shaft seems to be bamboo never saw an African stick made from it but you never know. Lew

18th March 2009, 01:02 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fist staff with mudfish and orginal context. http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~dvess/ids/fap/benin.htm Attached Images

20th March 2009, 07:45 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well it is here now and rather nice. The hand is much finer than the old pictures show. There are two ivory bands and a turned section of horn, this horn does seen very similar to a slightly emotive type of horn. It is a really lovey made thing. The other end has a steel cap and as can be seem this has not been in contact with hard surfaces. I think it is clearly not of European manufacture and too subtle to be Indian so I am still of a mind that it is Benin quite possibly from a prestige workshop or guild. Attached Images

20th March 2009, 09:47 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim It really does not strike me as African but it could be Asian or Philippine. Whatever it is I think it is quiet lovely and very finely crafted. Congrats. Btw what is the shaft made of? Lew

21st March 2009, 12:30 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sadly Lew I think you may be right that it is not African. It is perhaps a Buddhist thing the "mudra of the knowledge fist" and I now wonder if may come from Burma. The stick is wood carved possibly to look like bamboo, sections with edges cut at opposite angles which I try to show with these pics. The wood has also been lacquered not something I would associate with Africa, though all one would need is a bottle of gin and some tree resin to make a lacquer. I am sure the turned horn section is "R". Although I am dissapointed that it is probably south Asian it is quite nice and i like the idea of the fist of kniwledge, you learn something every day Vajra Mudra Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 21st March 2009 at 12:41 PM.

21st March 2009, 05:50 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew after some more thought I am back on the Benin origin. The fist is sure benin symbol. I can ever show an example on a staff in this thread. Not so with the Buddhist "fist of wisdom" which is actually a two handed gesture, which only may possibly be resented with just a fist? Look at the turned ivory handle on this Mangbetu knife. Surely West Africa, Benin artists could turn materials too. To me it cannot be anything else. Perhaps some Buddhist members might be able to give more information on the fist gesture? PS, another reason I hope it is what I think it is, because I have this janus mudfish thing. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 21st March 2009 at 06:19 PM.

26th March 2009, 09:40 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	We have a saying in the UK "you wait all day for a bus then three come along at once" This; I do not think is "Trench Art" To my mind the carving is very nice and not the product of a soldier passing time. I would suggest that the 303 bullet and casing has been added much latter spoiling a super staff. It went for rather a lot of money too. It could still be a potent sybol of the power of the Oba but the bullet would still be a latter addition which is a problem. Is there such a thing as WW2 trench art? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...51&_trksid=p39

29th March 2009, 02:07 PM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim It seems like the fist symbol gets around. Here is a pic a fist hilted British Mole machete circa 1900-25? that the owner said he picked up in the Philippines but I take that story with a grain of salt. The wire wrap is more African to me. Attached Images

29th March 2009, 02:24 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fasinating Lew, and I would agree with you African, West African. Could even be the same wood?

29th March 2009, 11:30 PM	#17
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim and Lew Tim I followed the 'trench art' stick as well....I wondered whether the bullet had talismatic symbolism. The bullet ...a 'taker of life' held in an authoritarian hand .....the power of life and death ??? If you look at the hilt Lew post ...there appears to be a cylindrical object slightly protruding above and below the fist ....perhaps this has meaning? It is not unlikely that this 'cylindrical' motif could have been replaced with the bullet in the 'trench art' example Possibly making the 'trench art' stick African ...as the machete appears to be. Regards David

31st March 2009, 06:48 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew, I know you have turned into a stick man like Freddy and I, possibly others, we must stick together. I have just taken a punt on this staff which I believe is from the Solomon Islands but it could come from the more prestigous Islands in collector terms too. I cannot tell untill I get it. The other end according to the seller is made of a white material that is cracked. I am sure we are looking at marine ivory. It was half the price of the last link. I am looking for picture to back up my hunch. Attached Images

31st March 2009, 08:06 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am thinking this sort of work only perhaps a little more mundane. From the Art of Tonga, Hawai university press. Or something like in this link. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...n+island+staff Attached Images

3rd April 2009, 05:22 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It is here and even better than I hoped for. My hunch was right Tongan, Fijian or Samoan. Tongan artists were established on all Islands. Sadly one little dot is missing and the whale ivory end is split is two places but I think I will just about be able to live with the damage. I could sacrifice the handle of a common Central Asian knife and replace the dot. Would that be wrong? Shown with a Solomon staff. Attached Images

3rd April 2009, 06:38 PM	#21
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Tim Here is one of mine, from the Solomon Islands, for comparison. I believe the serpent motif is part of their iconography. Regards Attached Images

3rd April 2009, 06:43 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very very nice Colin. Some more stuff on Tongan artists. Attached Images

10th April 2009, 07:41 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew I think you will look here. I have just taken another punt on this item. 34, 1/2 inches, tapering from 1, 1/4 inches to 7/8 of an inch. That would make the hand around 3 inches wide so it could well be used as a club. This was the only picture so it bit of a gamble. Apparently there is slight damage to the outside of the little finger. Which could indicate use as a weapon. I think it is clearly African. Like your machete it is a left hand, the other sticks in this thread are right hand. Attached Images

12th April 2009, 12:31 PM	#24
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Oryx walking stick ? Another African stick which is carved from one piece of horn. I am guessing that it is Oryx as it is quite straight. It's a bit short for a walking stick at about 1 metre so it may have served another purpose. Any suggestions as to the origin ? Regards Royston Attached Images

12th April 2009, 07:56 PM	#25
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks like you could fend off any nasty person with that point. Are you sure it is horn? not that I doubt you just that things can be hard to discern through a PC. The horn is solid? I believe antelope horns are hollow? solid horn would be far more rare. I am not an expert but to my mind this is East African like Milawi, Mozambique or Tanzania. The carving to the back of the head and other aspects of the face can be seen in carving from these areas today. Frequently seen in charity shops, car boot sales and new items at so called "CRAFT" markets. Your piece does not strike me as tourist or "art market" work, however I do feel it is modern in the sence I feel sure it is post 1918 possibly quite a bit latter. The carrying of sticks as a social marker as well as a possible defensive weapon was comman in parts of East Africa untill quite recently and no doubt still is today in the most rural areas. Interestingly my new neighbour who I was talking to this very afternoon is from Guinea. I showed him some of my sticks. He went on to say that in his region traditionally the eldest son of a family would be marked by carring a stick. There is a good we site on prestige sticks in East Africa. I will try and find it again and this time bookmark it.

12th April 2009, 09:15 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That old Zulu magic, shame about the nose and the ear are a bit flaky too. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=390042158896

13th April 2009, 02:12 PM	#27
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim I was looking at that one. A nice piece but again the price is rediculous . Lew

15th April 2009, 09:41 PM	#28
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The fist stick that was a gamble, well it is total rubbish, trouist, and badly damaged. The Fiji one is still nice .

19th April 2009, 06:14 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew, I am sending the rubbish one back. The money will pay for this one, buy it now offer. The seller says it weighs 3/4 of a Kilo 750g? That must make it a club? 36" long. Attached Images

19th April 2009, 07:50 PM	#30
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HORNS THE ONLY LONG STRAIGHT HORNS WITH A LARGE SOLID TIP I KNOW OF IS THE GEMSBOK THE SOUTHERN ONES HAVING THE LONGEST HORNS. THE HORNS RANGE FROM 60 TO 150 CM. LONG AND ARE HOLLOW AT THE BASE BUT HAVE A LONG SOLID TIP. THEY CAN BE DANGEROUS TO GET AROUND AS THEY WILL USE THEIR HORNS TO STAB YOU AND ARE VERY FAST. PREDATORS DO HUNT THEM BUT ARE PROBABLY VERY CAREFUL WHEN TRYING FOR A HEALTHY ADULT THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO APROACH CLOSELY WHEN HUNTING ESPECIALLY WHEN WOUNDED. THE HORNS ARE SOMETIMES USED IN MAKING SPEARS AND OTHER ITEMS BY SOME TRIBES. Attached Images