Unusual lock for ID

[fernando]

This is quite new for me .
The lock properly said is done by a patilha device, but all the rest is atypical to the patilha (Miquelete) concept.
The 'master' spring is inside, the usual classic percussion spring.
The locking mechanism inside, where the spring catches, is composed by an 'integral' setup, quite sophisticated.
The exterior half cocked position, instead of being the patilha wedge that rests on the 'button', is its inside curve that rests on the said 'button'.
I ignore whether my pocket lexicon is clear, but i hope that the pictures speak for themselves.
Anyone familiar with this lock version? Dom Manuel Iravedra? Stuart? Any other gentle Forumite?

Thanks in advance

Fernando

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[ward]

Looks like an Ottoman system, Fernando.
Not a conversion either. Show the whole thing can
probably tell better.

[fernando]

I don't think that is its origin, Ward.
Looking at its overall design, looks more like European, don't you agree?
The barrel has some marks near the breech that i can't distinguish; could be either proof or maker's marks.
Below it is signed LAZARO LAZARINO LEGITIMO, but this must be a fake.
The muzzle is almost unnoticeably flared.
The calibre is around 12 gauge.
What would you say, after looking at these pictures?
Fernando

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[ward]

I don't think the stock or barrel impact where the lock was made here Fernando. It isn't like anything from the Mediterranean, but does relate to Turkish, Balkan and Caucasian locks. Interesting piece, maybe unique.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Fernando,
A most interesting lock indeed. Nothing in any of my books remotely like it!
The Lazzaro signing is in my opinion DEFINATELY false. Any guns by this maker I have seen are signed in flowing style and gold filled! This looks to me like punched letters.
Those marks on the barrel could POSSIBLY be British, but lack of clarity means that positive identification is impossible.
General overall style could also be British (but equally Continental European), but the ramrod looks definately odd!
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Regards Stuart

[Philip]

Fernando,
An interesting gun! The mechanism appears to be a version of the so-called "Madrid lock", developed in Spain sometime in the 18th cent. It was intended to be a hybrid of the Iberian "patilha" locks (with the sear which engages the hammer or cock through apertures in the lockplate) and the familiar "French" flintlock (with its internal mainspring acting on a tumbler upon whose axis the cock pivots). The shape of the lockplate and the cock are patterned after the French lock. James D. Lavin, in his classic work A HISTORY OF SPANISH FIREARMS (1965), discusses this in some detail. These locks achieved limited popularity in Spain, and as far as I have been able to determine they were not imitated in the Near East as were the "patilha" and "agujeta" mechanisms. You mainly see them on Spanish military-pattern muskets.

This is the first percussion example that I'm aware of. The outline of the lockplate, so similar to that of a flintlock, gives the impression of an original flint mechanism which may have been converted to percussion via a change from cock to hammer, and the removal of the priming-pan, the frizzen and its pivot screw, and the frizzen spring and screw. However, this must be verified by a closer examination of the metal in the lockplate. A conversion would have necessitated the filling-in of the holes for the frizzen pivot screw, and the frizzen spring screw and retaining teat.

Howard L. Blackmore, in GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965) also discusses Madrid locks, providing an operational diagram of one specimen, and providing photos of 4 examples (figs. 264-67) which indicate that there were variations in the locations of the half- and full-cock sears. But the essential features (the two principles enumerated at the beginning of this post) are the same.

[fernando]

Thank you so much for your contribution, Philip.
Thank you also for reminding that this patilha version is mentioned in Lavin's work, where i now notice that is actually illustrated with a sketch (fig. 17).
Although this 'infrequent' (his term) variant was confined to the XVIII century, this example of mine is of course a later specimen and, the interior mechanism that retracts the cocking studs when pulling the trigger, looks like a singular solution to me.
Indeed the design of the lock plate is typical of flintlocks; due to that, the first thing i did when i saw this gun was searching for traces of previous flintlock devices, but in fact the plate metal is intact; despite its 'suspicious' aspect, it was indeed born for percussion.
Best
Fernando

[celtan]

That makes yours even rarer. I've heard of the Madrid Locks, a variation of the flintlock "patilla" (span. for small-leg/side-burn) lock, but have never seen one. There's no data of their use beyond the peninsula.

Congrats!

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you so much for your contribution, Philip.
Thank you also for reminding that this patilha version is mentioned in Lavin's work, where i now notice that is actually illustrated with a sketch (fig. 17).
Although this 'infrequent' (his term) variant was confined to the XVIII century, this example of mine is of course a later specimen and, the interior mechanism that retracts the cocking studs when pulling the trigger, looks like a singular solution to me.
Indeed the design of the lock plate is typical of flintlocks; due to that, the first thing i did when i saw this gun was searching for traces of previous flintlock devices, but in fact the plate metal is intact; despite its 'suspicious' aspect, it was indeed born for percussion.
Best
Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Philip,

Would you kindlyshow us a couple Madrid Lock's illustrations from the book you mention?

Best

Manolo

Originally Posted by Philip

Fernando,
An interesting gun! The mechanism appears to be a version of the so-called "Madrid lock", developed in Spain sometime in the 18th cent. It was intended to be a hybrid of the Iberian "patilha" locks (with the sear which engages the hammer or cock through apertures in the lockplate) and the familiar "French" flintlock (with its internal mainspring acting on a tumbler upon whose axis the cock pivots). The shape of the lockplate and the cock are patterned after the French lock. James D. Lavin, in his classic work A HISTORY OF SPANISH FIREARMS (1965), discusses this in some detail. These locks achieved limited popularity in Spain, and as far as I have been able to determine they were not imitated in the Near East as were the "patilha" and "agujeta" mechanisms. You mainly see them on Spanish military-pattern muskets.

This is the first percussion example that I'm aware of. The outline of the lockplate, so similar to that of a flintlock, gives the impression of an original flint mechanism which may have been converted to percussion via a change from cock to hammer, and the removal of the priming-pan, the frizzen and its pivot screw, and the frizzen spring and screw. However, this must be verified by a closer examination of the metal in the lockplate. A conversion would have necessitated the filling-in of the holes for the frizzen pivot screw, and the frizzen spring screw and retaining teat.

Howard L. Blackmore, in GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965) also discusses Madrid locks, providing an operational diagram of one specimen, and providing photos of 4 examples (figs. 264-67) which indicate that there were variations in the locations of the half- and full-cock sears. But the essential features (the two principles enumerated at the beginning of this post) are the same.

[Philip]

Hi, Celtan
I'll see what I can do re: pics. Buying a scanner has been on my "to do" list for 2+ years, but everytime I make up my mind to go to the store, a sword, gun, or a tool for my workshop is offered to me that I can't do without! Will try using my dig camera on Blackmore's book; sorry I don't own a copy of Lavin (though I've used library copies over the years).

[celtan]

I understand you perfectly, a camera's pic will do fine. It's just I have never seen one in its flintlock version. I sure could use the image to illustrate the model, on lectures I offer on the subject.

Best regards, and thanks for taking the time to answer.

Manolo

Manuel Luis Iravedra

Originally Posted by Philip

Hi, Celtan
I'll see what I can do re: pics. Buying a scanner has been on my "to do" list for 2+ years, but everytime I make up my mind to go to the store, a sword, gun, or a tool for my workshop is offered to me that I can't do without! Will try using my dig camera on Blackmore's book; sorry I don't own a copy of Lavin (though I've used library copies over the years).

[fernando]

Hi Manolo,
I am not sure what you want to see; i will try and be usefull.
I happen to have Lavin's work.
On what touches the connection with my lock example, this sketch represents what he calls infrequent version, as far as the cocking device is concerned.
Obviously at this stage the rest of the lock was the type with the external main spring and the flintlock hammer, whereas mine, with a percussion hammer and the internal springs, together with that 'advanced' sear retracting system, is a later evolution which i haven't yet seen illustrated out there; but i keep looking, though.

Fernando.

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[fernando]

Everyone knows the basic system, right ?

Fernando

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