Nice Indo Persian Axe

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi everyone, I have been away from the forums of late, with the last year of my degree taking me away from what is actualy important in life.

However, now that I have graduated (and unemployed hopefully temporarily!) I am back!

This axe went unsold at a local auction house and I was considering making an offer, but as many of you know I am very inexperienced, this may be my first axe!

I am confused to its age, is it a nice old example (18th to 19th century), a fake, or just a nice modern example.

Sorry for the poor pictures, let me know what you think

Regards

Bali

[Atlantia]

Hi Bali,

Well, its not bad, but the head is obviously on 'backwards' and I'm not 100% sure its a fighting 'Saddle' axe (Tabar) and not just a remounted woodsmans axe. Any decoration on the head? Looks to have some age, probobly not too modern.
I Like the shaft, from what I can make out. Looks like the Kashmir rosette as decoration? Widens towards the back end to help with slippage, thats a good sign. Shaft is well done, looks 'right'
Might be worth a cheapish bid as a bit of a project.

Gene

P.S. had a closer look and there might be some incised lines decorating the blade! Overall I'd say it looks ok, I'd guess its a later one (towards the end ot the 19th/beginning of the 20th) and its probobly worth an offer.

[Battara]

Yeah, I too think the head is on backwards.....

[Tim Simmons]

I am not at all sure the blade is on upside down. There does not seem to be any old disturbance to the rivets on the halft. Which would have to be removed to take out the rod and knob finial. It is well worth an offer to my mind as long as it is a bargian. It will probably clean up well.

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi guys,

thank you for your carefull observations, I totally missed the fact that it was upside down,
why would this be?, and if it has been replaced with a newer head can it be easily taken off and put back right?

Could anyone please PM me an average price I should offer, I have been stung before, and have no idea to its value.

Thanks everyone

Regards
Bally

[Tim Simmons]

Sadly I no longer have this axe or the pics. Indian stuff never stays long with me. In this link the black and white pic shows a similar upside down type of axe head. This type of axe is often described as rare by some collectors and dealers so it might be a good idea to make a sensible offer, 2-3 of ponies?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=north+i

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Sadly I no longer have this axe or the pics. Indian stuff never stays long with me. In this link the black and white pic shows a similar upside down type of axe head. This type of axe is often described as rare by some collectors and dealers so it might be a good idea to make a sensible offer, 2-3 of ponies?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=north+i

Hi Tim,
Am I going blind in my old age? I really can't see the similar upside down example mate?
The picture with the Katar in the middle?


Can I presume to make an observation about the one in this thread though?
If the head is the right way on, then when swung, a light or glancing blow will push the target away. Against armour it may not even penetrate or buckle.
Having the curve of the cutting edge lean towards the handle increases the efficiency of the cut on impact.
The head looks like a classic Tabar (or any numnber of small ecuropean axes) shape, but very plain, I do think its probobly OK, but I'd be a little wary as it does seem to have been messed around with. I can only assume that at some point the head was removed and it was stored long enough that it changed hands whilst in two pieces.
I dont think the handle is a replacement, the rosette studs look ok and the fact that the handle widens towards the grip end is something that is very unlikely to be a home made effort by someone who then put the head on the wrong way around.


Yes a couple of ponies or a little more seems fine ;-)
Nice Axe for that! Would you adam and eve it?

[kronckew]

nice axe, the head does appear to be on upside down (either that or the haft is ) it looks like this is the head that it originally came with tho. (the one in the b&w photo linked is a different style and the edge is still in line for a strike - i agree with atlantia. even if there was a picture, it could also have been put on upside down. on this one i expect the finial at the top may unscrew allowing the head to be removed, or some such arrangement.

i DO have an ancient axe that is so old it's haft has been replaced three times and it's head twice and recently has had both done at the same time.

[DhaDha]

[QUOTE=Atlantia]Hi Bali,
and I'm not 100% sure its a fighting 'Saddle' axe (Tabar) and not just a remounted woodsmans axe.

Hi, I'd love to know how to tell the difference. I've always wanted to add a Tabar to my collection. Any suggestions?

Cheers

[Sikh_soldier]

Thanks everyone, very informative, are there any other formites who agree or disagree: is it the original head or not?

Also anyone hazzard a guess on the age?

Anymore info will be greatly appreciated, the auction house closes for christmas soon, and I have to make an offer soon


Thank you all, and by the way loving the ol Cockney slang

Regards
Bally

[Atlantia]

[QUOTE=DhaDha]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Bali,
and I'm not 100% sure its a fighting 'Saddle' axe (Tabar) and not just a remounted woodsmans axe.

Hi, I'd love to know how to tell the difference. I've always wanted to add a Tabar to my collection. Any suggestions?

Cheers

I do think this one is alright, its just that I was instantly suspicious when I saw the head that way around, and I've got a few antique axe heads that are that general shape and are definately not Tabars.
Now I'm really no expert on these, but I do like axes. I think that generally these will have some decoration on the blades. From elaborate koftgari, carving etc right down to just simple punched decoration or incised lines etc. Whereas, a woodsmans axe certainly wont. Well even European battle axes are often undecorated.
I think there looks like some patterns under the rust on this one, some borders etc

[katana]

Hi Bally,
first of all congrats on your graduation ( knowledge is the 'mightiest' weapon of all )

I too think, that if the price is 'right' ...get it. I also believe the head is upside down....but it seems to have been like it for awhile....judging by the rust around the finial (as suggested by Tim)

Another, high end version sold at Christies ...described as Ottoman ...the head very similar in shape but with decoration. There does seem to be decoration obscured by rust on the one posted.


http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=5164286

Regards David

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

Thanks everyone, very informative, are there any other formites who agree or disagree: is it the original head or not?

Also anyone hazzard a guess on the age?

Anymore info will be greatly appreciated, the auction house closes for christmas soon, and I have to make an offer soon


Thank you all, and by the way loving the ol Cockney slang

Regards
Bally

OK, here are my uneducated guesses, northern Indian, I'd say right at the top, Kashmir (do these go right into Afghanistan?). Date, and its going to be very general! I'd say post 1880 and pre 1940 (and its hard to tell of course without handling it) and I would say that the weight of probability is that the head IS original, but has been put back on the wrong way around.
I would guess that the head would come back off fairly easily, quite possibly as kronckew said the little finial will unscrew. Possibly it was broken off and whoever repaired it put the head on that way?
In any event I find I like it more every time I revisit the thread. If you can get it reasonably cheap then I'd say go for it!


P.S
Bally
If you get it you must come back tell us how much and make us all jealous!!

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the congrats David, very nice of you to say so.

Well Atlantia I feel the same way, it grows on me, but it will cost me more like a ton, than a few ponies, so I have to be sure, (its also a few hours drive away )

but I am beginning to lean towards making an offer....

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

Hi everyone

Thanks for the congrats David, very nice of you to say so.

Well Atlantia I feel the same way, it grows on me, but it will cost me more like a ton, than a few ponies, so I have to be sure, (its also a few hours drive away )

but I am beginning to lean towards making an offer....

LOL, three 'Ponies', a 'Ton'... its only a 'Score' and a 'lady Godiva' difference!

And its Xmas! Treat yourself, clean it up and put the head on the right way around and if you dont like it you'll make your money back on ebay!

Gene

[Sikh_soldier]

Your right Gene it is Xmas, what was i thinking , i am off to get that axe!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

Your right Gene it is Xmas, what was i thinking , i am off to get that axe!

Good luck mate! I cant wait to see better pics of it.

[Sikh_soldier]

I am setting off soon everyone, last chance for any comments!

[Atlantia]

Hope your journey wasn't in vain mate.
Good luck

Gene

[Tim Simmons]

If the finial unscrews then you are sorted. I will bet {no money to cover my back} that it does not. Who decides which way is up or down? the collector? the maker? or the user? do all people from all places see the same? It will still function. It has been that way of some time. A quick clean and it will look great.

[katana]

Hi,
I 've been pondering the question of whether the axe head is upside down or not. I have come to several observations that may suggest that perhaps for some horsemen the 'inverted' axe head may be an advantage. If this was an axe used by a foot soldier, he would need all the advantages of the design to aid function and penetration, so without a doubt the head would be set the other way round. However a horseman wielding an axe would have a number of advantages....first of all the forward momentum of the horse travelling at , say 20 -25 mph ...if the horseman just held out the axe it would strike a foot soldier at the same speed ..... without any effort other than the 'effort' to hold the axe. It would be similar to an 3 to 4lbs of sharp steel flying through the air at 20 mph or so...not something I would want to be on the receiving end of. Secondly as the horseman is elevated above head level of the 'ground troops' the arc of the axe strike is longer and can therefore generate more power before it strikes its target (usually the head). Thinking along those lines ... the penetration of the blade edge would be deeper.....making retrieval more difficult for the horseman...perhaps to the extent that the rider may have to 'let go' the axe for fear of being pulled from his mount. If the axe head was fitted 'upside down' ...I think the retrieval of the axe might be easier.

Regards David

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi everyone I have the axe, I like it, it has alot of character.

Thanks for that thought provoking post Katana,

Hi Tim, I have to ask what is a finial?

I will clean it up and post pictures asap, but I can tell you that it does have traces of what looks like koftari

Regards

Bally

[Atlantia]

Fantastic Bally!
Well done mate I think you've got a blinder there.

Congratulations, I am quite jealous!

Gene

Here is a very similar one with the head the right way around:

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi Gene,

Its all thanks to you, you helpedmake my mind up,

Thanks for the picture too!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
I 've been pondering the question of whether the axe head is upside down or not. I have come to several observations that may suggest that perhaps for some horsemen the 'inverted' axe head may be an advantage. If this was an axe used by a foot soldier, he would need all the advantages of the design to aid function and penetration, so without a doubt the head would be set the other way round. However a horseman wielding an axe would have a number of advantages....first of all the forward momentum of the horse travelling at , say 20 -25 mph ...if the horseman just held out the axe it would strike a foot soldier at the same speed ..... without any effort other than the 'effort' to hold the axe. It would be similar to an 3 to 4lbs of sharp steel flying through the air at 20 mph or so...not something I would want to be on the receiving end of. Secondly as the horseman is elevated above head level of the 'ground troops' the arc of the axe strike is longer and can therefore generate more power before it strikes its target (usually the head). Thinking along those lines ... the penetration of the blade edge would be deeper.....making retrieval more difficult for the horseman...perhaps to the extent that the rider may have to 'let go' the axe for fear of being pulled from his mount. If the axe head was fitted 'upside down' ...I think the retrieval of the axe might be easier.

Regards David

Hi David,

I can sort of see where you're coming from there, and some 'axes' (weapons of that family) of course do have a cutting edge that has a forward leaning arc, but in my experience they have it in addition to the classic back leaning curve, effectively variations of the 'half moon or cresent shape. Even a uniform curved cutting edge where the apex of the curve is at 90 degrees to the handle. I cant think of any where the traditional 'attack' angle is completely absent?
Even the Zagnal (sp?) usually has a light inward angle on the blade, so does the Bairagi ( I know they are more 'war hammers' than axes but..)
The Bhuj occasionally has a flat main edge with a curved end, but more often is like a big downcurving bowie knife on a long handle so has the incurved blade like a clip pointed Khukhi.
I know the Indians loved eccentric weapons, I'm thinking of those axes with the 3/4 arc on the blade and an antelope head on the end with the horns being spikes (can't think of the name) but even on them the edge goes right round to the handle
Problem with this one is that its the standard 'saddle axe' shape exactly, but reversed.
If we can find a full metal one with the blade this way round, that would put it to bed?

*goes offf to check some books........*



Hmm, I'll have a look at google!

Bally,
this is interesting, have a look at those above, I wonder what yours will look like after a careful clean?

Thanks BTW, Indian weapons are my favourites, so I'm sincere in my enthusiasm (and envy) for this axe. I'm very glad I helped talk you into it, I think you got a bargain by the looks of it.

Gene

[Tim Simmons]

The finial is the knob on top of the axe. Rather like a big decorative rivet, holding the axe head to the steel strengthening bar and harft. This all hangs on wether it unscrews. I dare to say it does not and so the axe head is how it was always meant to be??? agian who of us has the authority to claim which way up the head should be? another unusual thing is that the head is set 45 degrees off the edge of the strengthening bar. I could see that as a better way to take flexing when stuck in a target travelling at speed? ouch

[kronckew]

needs a bit of oiling before any attempts to unscrew or pull out the finial - it may also be tapered and stuck in like a wedge to secure the head.. is it loose?

anyhow, good luck

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by katana

Secondly as the horseman is elevated above head level of the 'ground troops' the arc of the axe strike is longer and can therefore generate more power before it strikes its target (usually the head). Thinking along those lines ... the penetration of the blade edge would be deeper.....making retrieval more difficult for the horseman...perhaps to the extent that the rider may have to 'let go' the axe for fear of being pulled from his mount. If the axe head was fitted 'upside down' ...I think the retrieval of the axe might be easier.

It makes sense. The angles is which the blade can hit an infantryman, could explain this configuration, equivalent to the configuration of the last third of a very curved shamshir. Specially if the infantryman shrinks, bends or kneels to avoid the blade. That would point to a tabar for sure, if the hypothesis becomes true. There are too many references to this "backwards" mounted axe heads to be coincidence, as it seems. And maybe the "normal" ones were designed to be used on cavalry targets with armour. This point dreserves a research.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi David,

I can sort of see where you're coming from there, and some 'axes' (weapons of that family) of course do have a cutting edge that has a forward leaning arc, but in my experience they have it in addition to the classic back leaning curve, effectively variations of the 'half moon or cresent shape. Even a uniform curved cutting edge where the apex of the curve is at 90 degrees to the handle. I cant think of any where the traditional 'attack' angle is completely absent?
Even the Zagnal (sp?) usually has a light inward angle on the blade, so does the Bairagi ( I know they are more 'war hammers' than axes but..)
The Bhuj occasionally has a flat main edge with a curved end, but more often is like a big downcurving bowie knife on a long handle so has the incurved blade like a clip pointed Khukhi.
I know the Indians loved eccentric weapons, I'm thinking of those axes with the 3/4 arc on the blade and an antelope head on the end with the horns being spikes (can't think of the name) but even on them the edge goes right round to the handle
Problem with this one is that its the standard 'saddle axe' shape exactly, but reversed.
If we can find a full metal one with the blade this way round, that would put it to bed?

*goes offf to check some books........*



Hmm, I'll have a look at google!

Bally,
this is interesting, have a look at those above, I wonder what yours will look like after a careful clean?

Thanks BTW, Indian weapons are my favourites, so I'm sincere in my enthusiasm (and envy) for this axe. I'm very glad I helped talk you into it, I think you got a bargain by the looks of it.

Gene

Salaams ~ and Bump ! This post contains the important reference to Persian saddle axes by Anthony North from his illustrated Islamic Arms and Armour.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[ariel]

I join the crowd claiming wrong orientation of the head. The geometry of the blade is absolutely typical for a conventional setting.