Tenegre and mystery knife...

[Spunjer]

found this tenegre in an antique shop today. the handle is made out of carabao horn. the diety is unlike i've seen before. it looks like a bat with three horns. the guard is tear drop shaped; at first i thought it was pure decoration, but when i held it in my hand, it made a lot of sense. the pointy part of the teardrop actually protects the knuckles. pretty slick, huh?
here's the stats:
total length: 25"
handle:6"
blade width (widest): 1 5/16"
blade width (narrow): 5/16"

[tom hyle]

Wow! I'm sending out vibes for examples, and "boom!" someone posts a big ol' fancy nice matulis-like talibesque Thanks. Teardrop guard and everybody.
Now, I'm picturing a woman. In her hand is a suitcase.......go, go, magic Genie
Usually this particular pommel is thought of as a (very stylized ) naga, I think? But check those big, fairly explicit ears. No ferule? Does the guard by any chance form a ferule, ala kampilan? Ie does the handle socket into a mortice in the guard?

[Spunjer]

here's the mysterious knife. the seller gave it to me as a gift. it has some engravings on the blade, but i'm not sure what it signifies. hopefully someone can shed some light. the handle appears to be made out of wood. not too sure about it being carabao horn and it has a brass ferrule. the pommel is a fist signifying 'thumb's up'...
total length: 16"
handle:5"

[Rick]

Old , isn't it .
Real interesting and functional shape for the guard .
I think we've seen more sophisticated carved bat pommels before , no ?

[tom hyle]

Oh no, but it's the Visayan sideways teardrop, that gives a protective effect somewhat like an annoe. Will I start waiting for all the pictures one day? Maybe, but they can be awful slow, and sometimes I don't even know if they're finished or not........

[Spunjer]

ROTFLMAO!!!
tom, as for the guard, it does remind me of kampilan style. it's (the guard) made out of wood, btw...

rick, would be nice to see another example of this paniki (bat) hilt...

[tom hyle]

The mystery knife; PI; Luzon? Looks like a type of matulis, etc. The fist is a Katapunin symbol, I think? Probably edge-hardened. Is there a full length tang? Note the resemblance in the clipped point to Mexican bolos.

[Spunjer]

i believe it's full length, tom. there's a nail(?) on the tip of the pommel. i thought it was katipunan, too (because of the fist). any chance of it being a tourist piece, tho?...

[tom hyle]

It doesn't seem like it to me, but one wonders, especially in light of Ian's wonderings, if there mightn't have been (for instance) a trade in these to Spain or other points in the empire. Probably the tip of a tang, rather than the nail common on kukuri. I wonder if it might've once had a thin sheet metal guard; there's a space, and it might be original or not, but I've seen a lot of thin guards badly torn and other swords that seem to have lost guards. I like the engraving; it reminds me of some newer Moro work, but remember this is not Moro, nor direct neighbors of the Moros (the tenegre is, more or less, being Visayan, and this seems similar to some Visayan engraving I've seen, too).
BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

[Ian]

The tenegre looks like an old one from Panay although the pommel is not characteristic. We need Zel to identify where that pommel originates. I know there is a bat form of hilt from Batangas, but this sword looks typical of Panay except for the pommel.

The knife is typical of Luzon. The style of hilt with the pinky notch is seen commonly on Ilocano knives, but the feature can be found elsewhere in Luzon as well. The small octagonal brass ferrule is also consistent with an Ilocano knife. The long clipped blade suggests post-WWII manufacture, although such blades were probably produced earlier too. The hilt has a simplified fist pommel with a full tang construction -- this abstract, minimalist style of fist is not typical of the Katipunan period, and I think post dates it by at least 50 years. Nevertheless a very well made knife, and a nice "gift."

Ian.

[tom hyle]

Now this is a matter of interpretation, for sure, but when it's a simply-finished piece in a traditional style, showing multiple marks of process (which Westerners/overculture don't like), and seemingly an effective piece made with every capability for use, I tend to think that's a native piece for the native market. The idea that the simplified fist means it's newer might hold water, as stylization of naturalistic shapes is a longstanding PI pommel carving tradition, such as makes its affect more pronounced over time from the introduction of a form (but are those hand shaped pommels on Moro kampilans?), but I don't think it indicates anything to do with the idea of tourist, or even decorator, or decadent status. BTW, I'm replying to way more than was said by anyone here and now; I know this; I'm talking to the world, about the world; please try to dig it. Excellent gift.

[Spunjer]

...BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

tom, the width i'm referring to on this one is the narrowest part of the blade closest to the handguard. yes it looks rather narrow, but it's compensated by the thickness (1/4'') at this part of the blade.

[LabanTayo]

here is an old thread with pics of my "bathead" tenegre.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../002597-3.html

[Ian]

Thanks Shelley. Any thoughts about the ages of your example and Spunjer's.

Ian.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

tom, the width i'm referring to on this one is the narrowest part of the blade closest to the handguard. yes it looks rather narrow, but it's compensated by the thickness (1/4'') at this part of the blade.

Wow, then; that's particularly talibesque of it; the wider waist on LabanTayo's is probably more typical of tenegre, in my experience. Laban Tayo, what's the gap below the gaurd about on yours?

[Battara]

I'm sort of in line with Ian on the dating of these pieces. Tagalogs also used okir designs along with others like the Ilocanos.

BTW - with all of these "batheads" does this make you folks "Batmen"?

[LabanTayo]

Tom,
The horn hilt has shrunk and pushed the tang out.

The Bathead theory is just that, a theory.
Batheads are predominately from Batangas, but these swords that Spunjer and I have, are not from Batangas. They are Visayan. Panay or Negros.
One thing to look for in the Bathead are the fangs. They do not have them, for the most part. I have several examples of Tenegres / Binangons / Sanduko, with deities that look like Batheads, but they have the fangs.
The fangs are usually in the back of the mouth. I also have and example that is definetely from Panay, but does not have fangs. This is one of the road blocks in our research. Zel is in the Philippines now, and I'll be there next week. Hopefully we can get some answers. and beer. and food.


The inlay on my blade has been somewhat translated.
They are militia / religious symbols. I need more research on it before I state publicly what they mean. Hope you understand.

[Federico]

A while back Zel posted that the tenegres with metal guards were old (circa Katipunan era), the wood guards were even older, and the tear shape guards even older than those.

[Spunjer]

shelley,
thanks for your input! i have to say this is the first visayan sword i own that has some value. when i called the antique shop owner and said he had a sword that has a 'chameleon' head with three horns, i just about fell off my chair. at first i thought he meant one of those sandukos, but seeing what he had, i was happy with it, too.

about the batheads: most of you know that pilipinos are very superstitious. if this sword was indeed from panay, maybe this theory would make sense. one of the things that are still widely believed are supernatural beings called aswangs. now these aswangs, or blood suckers, are actually human being during daylight, but at night, they turn into these hideous creatures (http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AS/ASW/Aswang/). hideous as in they turn into this winged creatures with bat like wings. now there are towns in iloilo that are known to be these aswangs' lairs. one of them is duenas. also, the province of capiz is a pretty notorious place. my thinking is, and i'm sure the local population were aware of this reputation, these towns used the bathead as a design for their hilt. please don't shoot me; it's just a theory...

federico,
yeah, i think i read that someplace here...

tom,
it does kinda remind me of a talibon somewhat...


p.s.
labantayo, eat some sisig for me, will ya!!!

[Conogre]

Cool....even the Philippines has their own version of the vampire/ghoul myth, AKA "Ann Rice Does Manilla".
On the other hand, I've also heard that in parts of the islands the flying foxes are also eagerly sought after as food, in spite of the beliefs....then again, maybe it's on islands w/o the supernatural attribution that they appear on the menu (to the point that I've heard that they are now have protected/endangered status)
yes/no?

On that nore, good night all.
Mike

[zelbone]

Well, well...I leave the country and all this cool discussion goes on !!!

Anyways, been looking at all these cool bolos and balisongs here in Batangas. Been to Taal, Balisong, San Jose, Lemery, Lipa, etc. looking for weapons and answers. It seems that the only bolos you find here are ones with wooden scabbards and plain hilts. If you want a fancy bolo, you have to have it custom made for you. That's really not that hard to do here. Most sellers have roadside stalls with ready made working bolos, but will make up a fighting bolo for you if you request. The most popular carved hilt form is the horse head here in Batangas. In fact on of the symbols for Batangas is the horse. The bathead is also very popular here, but I just found out today that the bathead style is more popular in Bicol. I haven't found out if it originated there, but the bathead form is also from there. Bicol's proximity to the Visayas could account for the similarity to Visayan swords.

Anyways, I gotta go to a cockfight (sabong) right now and down a few San Miguel later. I don't know when I'll have internet access again. I'll be in Manila in a couple of days and see whats going on.

[Spunjer]

hey zel!
nice to hear from you! glad to hear you're having a good time. yeah, i can't believe how sabong is so big over there. i knew it was popular back then, but when i was there the last time, can't believe how big it got. been to capiz yet?
as for internet access, it's all over manila, bro. seems like there's an internet cafe in every corner...

btw, i'm still having flashbacks from the way people drive over there, lol!

[Spunjer]

conogre,
as far as being eagerly sought for food, i'm not familiar with that. if anything, it's more of a delicacy. also, as far as fauna is concerned, that's different. what i mentioned were supernatural beings, transforming into an animal form...

another thing i notice about the hilt is this: what appears to be horns are actually more of a representation of eyes, ala snail. comments?

[Rick]

Spunjer , those features start from the jaw line ; couldn't they also be interpreted as tusks (ala Boar) ?

[Bill]

a couple of things to concider, in the last hundred years hardwoods were stripped from these islands wiping out species. but new unknown species or ones thought to be extinct are also found. Mix that with lost superstitions & myths, I think some of these critters may be hard to guess & may have been copies of hilts going back a couple hundred years, more traditional than a likeness of a present critter. From what I have seen, there seems to be a lot more bats than birds, the bats do well in the palm trees, the birds likely suffered with the lack of hardwoods. With compition between bats, likely several species became extinct.

[Spunjer]

bill,
that's a good point. a lot of the species are extinct. although this bat might know something:


rick, as far as boar tusk; anything is possible. we are just speculating here, so i can't say whose wrong or right... good observation